tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-57627567691595103622024-02-18T18:45:29.046-08:00Brad The Bike BoyBrad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.comBlogger200125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-72537322823606516092023-05-01T04:11:00.002-07:002023-05-01T04:11:28.638-07:00Index - of sorts anyway. Think of it as a guide.<p> <b><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;">Bikes</span></b></p><div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2011/12/joy-of-motorcycling.html">The joy of motorcycling</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2011/12/400-monster_5801.html">A 400 Monster</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/12/once-again-minnie-finds-herself-without.html">Once again, Minnie finds herself without a motor</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/03/more-minnie-fun.html">More Minnie fun</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/11/a-makeover-for-minnie-monster.html">A makeover for Minnie Monster</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/11/more-minnie-monster-photos-with-her.html">More Minnie Monster photos with her custom look.</a></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2017/11/an-end-for-minnies-makeover.html">An end for Minnie's makeover</a><br /></span></div><div><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2017/11/minnie-pics.html"><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;">Minnie pics</span></a></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/06/lovely-orange-900sl.html">Lovely orange 900SL</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/12/bob-browns-race-851.html">Bob Brown's race 851</a><br /></span></div><div><div><div style="background-color: white; color: #a82121; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2013/02/phil-aynsleys-photos-from-island-classic.html">Phil Aynsley's photos from the Island Classic</a></span></div></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-island-classic-and-ago.html">The Island Classic and Ago</a></span></div></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/05/perfect-cafe-racer.html">The perfect cafe racer?</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2011/11/851-sbk-photos-from-1989-phil-aynsley.html">851 SBK photos from 1989 - Phil Aynsley</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><b><br /></b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><b>Clutch</b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><span><b><br /></b></span><span><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/07/clutch-pressure-plate-bearings-and-like.html">Clutch pressure plate bearings and the like<br /></a></span><span><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2015/07/ducati-result-of-aluminium-clutch.html">Ducati: The result of aluminium clutch basket and steel plates<br /></a></span><span><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/01/ducati-grabby-shrieking-clutch-and-how.html">Ducati - Grabby, shrieking clutch and how I cured it</a></span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><div><b><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;">Controls</span></b></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2015/04/helibars-clip-ons-on-748-916-996-998.html">Helibars clip ons on a 748 / 916 / 996 / 998</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2013/06/fitting-acewell-dashboard-to-monster-ie.html">Fitting an Acewell dashboard to a Monster ie with immobilisor</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2013/03/acewell-dash-mount-plate-for-ducati.html">Acewell dash mount plate for Ducati Monster</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/10/speedymoto-tallboys-clip-ons-for-early.html">Speedymoto Tallboys clip ons for early Monsters</a></span></div></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><b>Electrical</b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><b><br /></b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2015/10/ducati-rotation-sensor-failures-of-new.html">Ducati: Rotation sensor failures of a new kind</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/11/diagnosing-bike-not-starting-switches.html">Diagnosing bike not starting - switches and being inputs to the ecu</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2020/06/playing-with-ducati-fuel-level-sender.html">Playing with a Ducati fuel level sender</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2018/03/ignitech-tcip4-as-replacement-for.html">Ignitech TCIP4 as a replacement for Marelli Digiplex</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2015/05/ducati-888-sp4-charging-system-issue.html">Ducati 888 SP4 charging system issue and influence of bad fuel pump</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/11/charging-system-diagnosis-procedure.html">Charging system diagnosis procedure</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/11/ducati-ie-models-and-voltage-drop-to.html">Ducati ie models and voltage drop to coils and injectors</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/05/digiplex-ignition-curves-for-george.html">Thursday, May 10, 2012 Digiplex ignition curves for George</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><b><br /></b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><b>Engines and Dyno runs</b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><b><br /></b></span></div><div><div style="background-color: white; color: #a82121; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2009/06/ducati-851853-dyno-chart.html">A Ducati 851/853 dyno chart<br /></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2011/11/dyno-comparison.html">A dyno comparison<br /></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/05/setting-squish-and-cam-timing.html">Setting squish and cam timing implications; 900SS Carb model<br /></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/09/monster-659-lams-one.html">Monster 659: The LAMS one.<br /></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/10/modified-airbox-to-carb-rubbers-for-2v.html">Modified airbox to carb rubbers for 2V carb Ducati models<br /></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/10/dyno-chart-for-hot-1000ss-1080cc-dp.html">Dyno chart for hot 1000SS: 1080cc, DP cams, Kaemna head, etc<br /></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/11/ducati-900-w-heads-vs-v-heads.html">Ducati 900: W heads vs V heads<br /></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-panigale-on-dyno.html">A Panigale on the dyno<br /></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2013/02/varying-intake-trumpet-length-and.html">Varying intake trumpet length and effects thereof.<br /></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2013/02/more-on-inlet-trumpets.html">More on inlet trumpets<br /></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2013/02/888sp4-vs-748853-dyno-chart.html">8</a><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2013/02/888sp4-vs-748853-dyno-chart.html">88SP4 vs 748/853 Dyno chart<br /></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2013/06/bob-browns-4-valve-pantah-heads.html">Bob Brown's 4 valve Pantah heads<br /></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2013/07/ducati-2v-cam-comparison-pre-2002-3.html">Ducati 2V cam comparison: pre 2002 3 bearing cams vs 2002 on two bearing cam<br /></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/02/valve-train-article-from-kevin-cameron.html">Valve train article from Kevin Cameron</a></span></div></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/04/fitting-2003-onwards-696796800-6-speed.html">Fitting a 2003 onwards 696/796/800 6 speed gearbox into a pre 1998 600/750</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/04/timing-belt-fitment-to-ducatis.html">Timing belt pulley positioning on belt drive Ducatis</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/04/lift-graph-for-4v-desmoquattro-cams.html">Lift graph for 4V Desmoquattro cams using strada inlet cam as exhaust cam</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/06/inlet-trumpet-design-and-inlet-length.html">Inlet trumpet design and inlet length info from David Vizard</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2015/07/thin-base-gaskets-for-996.html">Thin base gaskets for Ducati 996</a></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2015/09/another-great-story-on-inlet-manifold.html">Another great story on inlet manifold length and testing variations thereof from Emerald 3D</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2015/11/ducati-main-bearing-failures.html">Ducati main bearing failures</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/07/odd-alternator-cover-leaks.html">Odd alternator cover leaks</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/08/dyno-run-comparison-of-things-not-same.html">Dyno run comparison of things not the same - dunno, couldn't think of what to call it, it's a bit odd</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/08/part-2-of-dyno-run-comparison-of-things.html">Part 2 of Dyno run comparison of things not the same - dunno, couldn't think of what to call it, it's a bit odd</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2019/01/a-comparison-of-2v-and-4v-ducati-750.html">A comparison of 2V and 4V Ducati 750 engines</a></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2017/10/ducati-2v-cam-profile-comparisons.html">Ducati 2V cam profile comparisons</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2017/10/minnie-400-monster-gets-620-cams-one.html">Minnie the 400 Monster gets 620 cams: One has one's arse handed to oneself yet again.</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/04/it-does-indeed-go-to-11.html">It does indeed go to 11 - 400SS</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/07/another-dyno-debacle-with-minnie-400_11.html">Another dyno debacle with Minnie the 400 - Ducati Monster 400 dyno runs</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2015/07/ducati-st3-front-sprocket-incorrect.html">Ducati ST3 front sprocket incorrect position and other wierdness.</a><br /></span></div><div><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2015/07/further-comment-on-ducati-st3-crank.html"><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;">Further comment on the Ducati ST3 crank slot incorrectly machined.</span></a></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/10/ducati-st3-front-sprocket-incorrect.html">Ducati ST3 front sprocket incorrect position take 2</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/05/crank-shimming-info-for-monster-forum.html">Crank shimming info for Monster Forum thread</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/04/998s-motor-showing-its-bits.html">A 998S motor showing it's bits</a><br /></span></div><div><a href="http://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2023/05/ducati-ds-cam-profile-comparison.html" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;">2V DS cam profile comparison</span></a><br /></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><b>Exhaust</b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2017/03/more-minnie-400-monster-dyno-runs.html"><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;">More Minnie the 400 Monster dyno runs</span></a></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2017/08/minnie-400-monster-muffler-comparison.html">Minnie the 400 Monster: Muffler comparison test with the 2 -1 header (ie, why is it so bad)</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2017/11/my-revised-muffler-baffle-for-minnie.html">My revised muffler baffle for Minnie</a> </span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2020/07/exhaust-design-2-into-1-versus-2-into-2.html">Exhaust design - 2 into 1 versus 2 into 2 on th</a><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2020/07/exhaust-design-2-into-1-versus-2-into-2.html">e Ducati 400SS</a> </span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/04/danmoto-ss-00001-mufflers-fitted-to.html">Danmoto SS-00001 Harley Davidson mufflers fitted to the Monster</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/03/some-different-danmoto-mufflers.html">Some different Danmoto mufflers</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2015/05/do-you-really-want-to-know-about.html">"Do you really want to know about expansion chambers"</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2015/03/ducati-supersport-mufflers-carburettor.html">Ducati Supersport mufflers carburettor models vs ie</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/10/danmoto-muflers-for-older-monster.html">Danmoto Jisu muflers for older Monster</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/04/danmoto-jisu-mufflers-on-minnie-600m.html">Danmoto Jisu mufflers on Minnie the 600M</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><b>Maintenance</b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2019/07/ducati-2v-valve-clearance-timing-belt.html">Ducati 2V valve clearance, timing belt and cam timing videos</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2018/12/closing-rocker-spring-change-on-851.html">Closing rocker spring change on the 851.</a></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/07/steel-fuel-tanks-and-rust-sort-that.html">Steel fuel tanks and rust - the sort that makes holes and creates much agro</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2015/01/photo-of-that-peg-bracket-to-swingarm.html">Photo of that peg-bracket to swingarm support idea</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="Workshop stand for Aprilia, Ducati and MV Agusta - through the swingarm pivot"><span style="color: black;">Workshop stand for Aprilia, Ducati and MV Agusta - through the swingarm pivot</span></a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2011/12/848-1098-and-1198-air-filters-wearing.html">848, 1098 and 1198 air filters wearing on airbox</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2011/08/cam-problem-on-1000ss-ds.html">Cam problem on 1000SS ds</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2011/02/ducati-closing-valve-clearances-and.html">Ducati closing valve clearances and idle quality</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2011/01/cleaning-under-fuel-pump-etc.html">Cleaning under the fuel pump, etc</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2010/12/8481098-ducati-performance-air-filters.html">848/1098 Ducati Performance Air filters (and other issues from an 848 with 24,000km)</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><b>Suspension</b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2017/12/ducati-43mm-non-adjustable-forks-1999.html">Ducati 43mm non adjustable forks 1999 - 2005 ish - The ones with an awful lot of low speed damping.</a></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/07/gsxr-fork-cartridges-in-41mm-showa.html">GSXR fork cartridges in 41mm Showa adjustable forks</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/07/more-on-craptacular-marocchi-43mm-forks.html">More on the craptacular Marocchi 43mm forks: SC1000, Monster,etc</a><br /></span></div><div><h3 class="post-title entry-title" itemprop="name" style="background-color: white; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/05/marzocchi-40mm-fork-design-and-impact.html"><span style="color: black; font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;">Marzocchi 40mm fork design and impact of oil level on spring rate, Part 3: The crap ones</span></a></h3></div><div><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/05/showa-43mm-adjustable-fork-design-and.html"><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;">Showa 43mm adjustable fork design and impact of oil level on spring rate, Part 1: M900ie</span></a></div><div><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/05/showa-43mm-adjustable-fork-design-and_21.html"><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;">Showa 43mm adjustable fork design and impact of oil level on spring rate, Part 2: 748 / 916 / 996 / etc</span></a></div><div><div style="background-color: white; color: #a82121; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2013/12/marzocchi-43mm-fork-design-and-impact.html">Marzocchi 43mm fork design and impact of oil level on spring rate<br /></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/01/marzocchi-43mm-fork-design-and-impact.html">Marzocchi 43mm fork design and impact of oil level on spring rate, Part 2<br /></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/05/marzocchi-43mm-fork-design-and-impact.html">Marzocchi 43mm fork design and impact of oil level on spring rate, Part 3: More fork details</a></span></div></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2013/10/good-article-on-fork-design-from-paul.html">Good article on fork design from Paul Thede at Race Tech</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/06/fixing-showa-non-sbk-forks-with-k-tech.html">Fixing Showa non SBK forks with K-Tech valves</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2011/11/1000ss-fork-job.html">1000SS Fork job</a></span></div><div><div><span><b><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></b></span></div><div><div><b><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;">Timing Belts</span></b></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/02/ducati-timing-belt-replacement-and-cam.html">Ducati timing belt replacement, factory tool and cam timing ramblings</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2017/02/ducati-timing-belt-failures-and.html">Ducati timing belt failures and replacement intervals</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2017/02/some-more-gates-belt-stuff.html">Some more Gates belt stuff</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/07/ducati-2v-timing-belt-adjuster-bearings_30.html">Ducati 2V timing belt adjuster bearings</a></span></div></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><b><span>Tuning - </span></b><b><span>Carby</span></b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2015/08/ducati-900-carb-models-with-and-without.html">Ducati 900 Carb models with and without airbox lids</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/03/setting-float-level-on-mikuni-bdst38.html">Setting float level on Mikuni BDST38 carbs from Ducati Supersport and Monster</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2017/09/minnie-400-monster-not-getting-anywhere.html">Minnie the 400 Monster: Not getting anywhere</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2017/05/dellorto-phf-phm-pump-ramp-profiles.html">Dellorto PHF PHM pump ramp profiles</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/05/tps-for-keihin-fcr.html">TPS for Keihin FCR</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/12/keihin-fcr-main-air-jet-test.html">Keihin FCR main air jet test</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/12/keihin-fcr-main-air-jet-test-post-2.html">Keihin FCR main air jet test: post 2</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/10/minnie-gets-some-fcrs-aka-day-full-of.html">Minnie gets some FCRs (aka, a day full of arrrgh)</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/07/carby-model-ss-and-monsters-airbox-lids.html">Carby model SS and Monsters airbox lids and snorkels</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/07/more-carby-model-ss-and-monsters-airbox.html">More carby model SS and Monsters airbox lids and snorkels</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2011/01/airbox-mods-when-fitting-fcr-to-ducati.html">Airbox mods when fitting FCR to Ducati SS and Monster</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2010/12/900ss-with-fcr-39-and-41-carbs.html">Thursday, December 2, 2010 900SS With FCR 39 and 41 Carbs</a></span></div><p><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><b>Tuning - Fuel Injection</b></span></p><div style="background-color: white; color: #a82121; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><a href="http://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2022/04/undoing-electronic-tps-reset-on-non.html"><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;">Undoing an electronic TPS reset on a non linear TPS model - in this instance an ST4S</span></a><br /></div><div style="background-color: white; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><span style="color: red; font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2019/07/multistrada-1000-not-idling-ecu-based.html">Multistrada 1000 not idling - an ecu based solution.</a></span></div><div style="background-color: white; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><span style="color: red; font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2023/04/multistrada-1000-idling-issue-another.html" target="_blank">Multistrada 1000 not idling - cle</a></span><span style="font-family: verdana;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2023/04/multistrada-1000-idling-issue-another.html" target="_blank">aning the throttle bodies</a></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/01/996r-and-998-and-sort-of-748r-non.html" style="font-family: verdana; font-size: large;">996R and 998 (and sort of 748R) Non Linear TPS Baseline Adjustment</a></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2013/07/mounting-pod-filters-on-ducati-4v-intake.html">Mounting pod filters on a Ducati 4V intake</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2013/07/tuning-851-sp-or-things-you-dont-know.html">Tuning an 851 SP. Or, the things you don’t know you don’t know.</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2011/03/making-assumptions.html">Making assumptions</a></span></div></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><b><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;">Moto Guzzi</span></b></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2017/06/magni-guzzi-phm40-dyno-graph.html">Magni Sfida / Guzzi PHM40 dyno graph</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2017/06/dellorto-carb-tuning-on-moto-guzzi.html">Dellorto carb tuning on a Moto Guzzi Sport 1100, with some gearing and ignition rambling</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/10/throttle-position-sensor-setting_21.html">Throttle Position Sensor setting procedure for Moto Guzzi California and Bellagio</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/04/speaking-of-stands-moto-guzzi-daytona.html">Speaking of stands: Moto Guzzi Daytona, Sport, V11</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><b><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;">MV Agusta</span></b></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2016/07/rebuilding-mv-agusta-f4-mirror-mount.html">Rebuilding MV Agusta F4 mirror mount posts AKA when those stupid little knobs on the bottom break off and the bloody indicators won't work anymore.</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2009/09/mv-agusta-312r-dyno-chart.html">MV Agusta 312R dyno chart</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><b><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;">Stuff</span></b></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/07/it-was-20-years-ago-today.html">It was 20 years ago today........</a><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2014/07/some-photos-from-along-way.html">Some photos from along the way</a><br /></span></div><div><div style="background-color: white; color: #a82121; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2012/10/festival-of-italian-motorcycles-2012.html">Festival Of Italian Motorcycles 2012</a></span></div></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2010/12/great-video.html">A Great Video</a><br /></span></div><div><br /></div></div><p><br /></p>Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-66856390008714525552023-05-01T04:07:00.006-07:002023-05-01T04:12:55.951-07:00Ducati DS Cam profile comparison<p><span style="font-family: verdana;">DS version of the 2V Cam profile comparison -> <a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2017/10/ducati-2v-cam-profile-comparisons.html" target="_blank">Click here for link</a> using the same rig as previously modified very slightly to take the M659 head. And prompting me to buy a new degree wheel.</span></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhND7GJ4pdoH9gfggIbfN1MEeXRZbNcQUlkeT6yoo53yweUqWMU1Z5bbeeD6wKeMIrLlHFw2UPPlvFSgi9yZmGENcTmPyUXLJTOXBRh1_DX7SqBkrdCbMmGnpW3WTLYu1oe4bF-IOLPzswlz9YzjKX45xTt6HfWWvREm9UKUj0BWUKIs6sbhlSkhUaZ2g" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="4032" data-original-width="3024" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhND7GJ4pdoH9gfggIbfN1MEeXRZbNcQUlkeT6yoo53yweUqWMU1Z5bbeeD6wKeMIrLlHFw2UPPlvFSgi9yZmGENcTmPyUXLJTOXBRh1_DX7SqBkrdCbMmGnpW3WTLYu1oe4bF-IOLPzswlz9YzjKX45xTt6HfWWvREm9UKUj0BWUKIs6sbhlSkhUaZ2g=w480-h640" width="480" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">The DS cams I have to hand are the M659/696/796 8P and the 1100Evo 10B. George at D Moto sent me a pair of 3V, which are the early 1000 cams. The later 1000 cams are 7V, and i believe there must also be another version as there are still 3 active # numbers for 1000/1100 cams with the same specs, and one superceded.</span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">The physical difference in the cams from early to late is the large bearing journal on the LH end. On the later cams it is narrower and further out, and requires a different cam end cap. As below. 10B on left, 3V on right.</span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjIt1hn2TU3S1tCix4XL2RT5q91pUzEamujiDpre8t4rvBoI7awvnnU0g1wJtDjjg68rSYXenbJqF1HdthWB-XqOxuLAILucGMHUP4sLq_MUDci4Z8EAIDF45owMtFSiV9i1QbYvEcsq2gNjuBqrNv8E1qiGyK9vAHM_JVk9kWsPCYFR5nmyuqkikQRjg/s1421/ds%20cams%205.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="973" data-original-width="1421" height="438" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjIt1hn2TU3S1tCix4XL2RT5q91pUzEamujiDpre8t4rvBoI7awvnnU0g1wJtDjjg68rSYXenbJqF1HdthWB-XqOxuLAILucGMHUP4sLq_MUDci4Z8EAIDF45owMtFSiV9i1QbYvEcsq2gNjuBqrNv8E1qiGyK9vAHM_JVk9kWsPCYFR5nmyuqkikQRjg/w640-h438/ds%20cams%205.jpg" width="640" /></a></div></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><span style="font-family: verdana;">The specs as per the manuals, etc and as measured as below. I don't have any of the bottom 3 cams to check for now.</span><p></p><p><span style="font-family: verdana;"></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhCKYdxX3HN09U7LZJPyb3OObuXZiNLQNGUYj02RS_YA8oOpjeZWsQ5exXIr8Upcf7V-8ZoCToE-1Buts2i_hux5UdiWRJjC-mYtvMFoYJCHpXvEF5cPY7eer5uixHgrYew4v0MTEwBvwsJhytKP-e6w_lyahU46aR9ot6XCRZYzeb6KJC2DYfzKhVy_Q" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="373" data-original-width="1030" height="232" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhCKYdxX3HN09U7LZJPyb3OObuXZiNLQNGUYj02RS_YA8oOpjeZWsQ5exXIr8Upcf7V-8ZoCToE-1Buts2i_hux5UdiWRJjC-mYtvMFoYJCHpXvEF5cPY7eer5uixHgrYew4v0MTEwBvwsJhytKP-e6w_lyahU46aR9ot6XCRZYzeb6KJC2DYfzKhVy_Q=w640-h232" width="640" /></a></span></div><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br />I suspect that the 8P and 3V are the same profiles, with the lobe separation opened up (less overlap) for the bigger 1000/1100 engines. The Evo cam is quite a bit bigger.</span><p></p><p><span style="font-family: verdana;">Comparing all:</span></p><p><span style="font-family: verdana;"></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEifqCU0XVe5Red59PsOR8QyDIhcU_4sNGAnAFKc6PCzQ42NGN6Wxlld-TmXHw9h-j_JtAlxyp5_gRLi0F_n5WGMYqHzJaMN-6uk44JRr7o2JWGBoLS_7dC1NKbcnNuSMmy59skv7tW0UR_OFUmXMSVyKjYlcXhfaZHKGsIQFfbXhDBak_50LC9iXmJViQ" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="637" data-original-width="974" height="418" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEifqCU0XVe5Red59PsOR8QyDIhcU_4sNGAnAFKc6PCzQ42NGN6Wxlld-TmXHw9h-j_JtAlxyp5_gRLi0F_n5WGMYqHzJaMN-6uk44JRr7o2JWGBoLS_7dC1NKbcnNuSMmy59skv7tW0UR_OFUmXMSVyKjYlcXhfaZHKGsIQFfbXhDBak_50LC9iXmJViQ=w640-h418" width="640" /></a></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">The 8P and 3V. </span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEj-BSMZ_0Jxil3G5HyBalqpODZkYqekNz-DgJhHDzprd84RXaemKJFZurdiYmQVgSgdKMRys1qNZNkjQkASG-iClJNQS6uI3bjadt_4ae8SoND8wj1thwQeLq9Aroh0_sAgSelH_9WGvblitmC1RIVb1o7P-tGqhDNDgG7dBm9JUumuI8SdU74Etsq3Lw" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="637" data-original-width="976" height="418" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEj-BSMZ_0Jxil3G5HyBalqpODZkYqekNz-DgJhHDzprd84RXaemKJFZurdiYmQVgSgdKMRys1qNZNkjQkASG-iClJNQS6uI3bjadt_4ae8SoND8wj1thwQeLq9Aroh0_sAgSelH_9WGvblitmC1RIVb1o7P-tGqhDNDgG7dBm9JUumuI8SdU74Etsq3Lw=w640-h418" width="640" /></a></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">And the 3V and 10B, showing how much bigger the Evo's 10B is.</span></div><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjf2MVNM-NoHyZ9ak3QKJvlJwoxd6WpSWv6Nf8frSqcOeIX65Ufg6MkgDm2_C70IuJftd7wSOl6lNjxJ9FGb0rkFPOX5fK_HQnqNFG9OA7U8TsZKSEsrc3_0Kme2cgAhyQbT-PSDDhKwET4rp-cc1YWDAS3bkryGZuvXvIxgEpJySVKHzY1uS9LrqWL_w" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="637" data-original-width="976" height="418" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjf2MVNM-NoHyZ9ak3QKJvlJwoxd6WpSWv6Nf8frSqcOeIX65Ufg6MkgDm2_C70IuJftd7wSOl6lNjxJ9FGb0rkFPOX5fK_HQnqNFG9OA7U8TsZKSEsrc3_0Kme2cgAhyQbT-PSDDhKwET4rp-cc1YWDAS3bkryGZuvXvIxgEpJySVKHzY1uS9LrqWL_w=w640-h418" width="640" /></a></div></span></div>Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-65136725793367068632023-04-29T23:03:00.005-07:002023-04-29T23:08:26.598-07:00Multistrada 1000 idling issue - Another (more complete) take on it.<p> <span style="font-family: verdana;">Some time ago I had a MTS1000 in that had been set up badly to overcome a non idling issue. That was part of a minor service and not much disassembly, and I got around that electronically. See here -> <a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2019/07/multistrada-1000-not-idling-ecu-based.html" target="_blank">MTS 1000 not idling</a> That particular bike had a very vague history and a couple of dash replacements with no record of actual km.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: verdana;">A bit of MTS1000 info from that report - </span><i><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">The MTS1000 was the first Ducati with an idle control valve ("stepper motor", etc). A</span></span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: verdana;">ny model with an idle control valve doesn't need the air bleeds (the little screws on the sides of the throttle bodies that allow air to bypass the throttle blades) opened, as their primary function is to allow you to set the idle speed. I also use the air bleeds to equalise the idle mixture between the cylinders, in which case you open the air bleed of the richer cylinder to lean it off to be the same as the leaner cylinder. Meaning one air bleed should be fully closed.</span></i></p><p><span style="background-color: white; font-family: verdana;">Seeing air bleeds wound out on bikes with idle control valves really winds me up. Just not how it's meant to be done.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: verdana;">Recently I had another MTS1000 in for an 80,000km service that I found in the same sort of tune set up - air bleeds wound out one and a half and two and an eighth turns and idle trimmer @ +20. My response was to wind the air bleeds fully in and set the trimmer to 0 </span><span style="font-family: verdana;">to see what happened</span><span style="font-family: verdana;">, but </span><span style="font-family: verdana;">there was no way it was going to idle successfully.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: verdana;">As I was doing a major service, and had just popped the fuel tank back on to run it, there wasn't a lot of time to be spent pulling it again. That made it worthwhile to pop off the tank and airbox and have a looksee at the throttle bodies. As below.</span></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEghnHQ1-f_1OpnoW9PQwfsuEXs-IDdmh-jrCegULZLiAdu0gbbG-5m-GzJ7FnPa2wdHPNp56o37wggPPRGI1QRY1K7gFwej5_hc1Y0XPjuEzr0uTkT3iLIf88xlNyLH3P8KLEFHeEk-vjdebaqLtzDsvKYMpZn9G8d29h77_XCGZ1JtXjQChZUqW_dpYQ/s4032/IMG_3001.JPG" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="4032" data-original-width="3024" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEghnHQ1-f_1OpnoW9PQwfsuEXs-IDdmh-jrCegULZLiAdu0gbbG-5m-GzJ7FnPa2wdHPNp56o37wggPPRGI1QRY1K7gFwej5_hc1Y0XPjuEzr0uTkT3iLIf88xlNyLH3P8KLEFHeEk-vjdebaqLtzDsvKYMpZn9G8d29h77_XCGZ1JtXjQChZUqW_dpYQ/w480-h640/IMG_3001.JPG" width="480" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjCaxnJHfb7GYL4DIQHOODI-EZWrOJ5h4j4qUj5cSHWiPBItRVd_4gSXgyzWOOw4tat0XWxJ0uE7t14WtbwOc_sgNp2l3dwJXNwkJJZVFqGRrubkJnDJpCWi1af53tKSLo-KpPBV7iG6Yl5nGUEEmLK5rXZ45QswM0fOD2SF2wVvWMrKH8udLQwEwReFw/s4032/IMG_3002.JPG" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="4032" data-original-width="3024" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjCaxnJHfb7GYL4DIQHOODI-EZWrOJ5h4j4qUj5cSHWiPBItRVd_4gSXgyzWOOw4tat0XWxJ0uE7t14WtbwOc_sgNp2l3dwJXNwkJJZVFqGRrubkJnDJpCWi1af53tKSLo-KpPBV7iG6Yl5nGUEEmLK5rXZ45QswM0fOD2SF2wVvWMrKH8udLQwEwReFw/w480-h640/IMG_3002.JPG" width="480" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">Icky. But not unexpected for 80,000km, especially on a model where you don't pull the airbox for routine maintenance like you do a Desmoquattro for instance. None of the 2V models really give you easy access to the throttle bodies to clean them at service. So I broke out the Threebond Engine Conditioner - which despite the name is a throttle body/intake cleaning spray - and gave it all a good clean up. I sprayed some down the idle control valve air hose as well, as they can also get claggy.</span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">It's quite awesome for getting fuel residue and combustion gunk off. I soak carb bits in it, but don't give them too long is my advice.</span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgyrHt_m4VlAmtJ62Ed4mCpYVHAqfwo4ZwwZ6PRe5-bV0jkj2-8oERh3ZqMJxLxK-DeOMnOl4Tb4iYXPs9mMvO9LMpTcXvx4Guo4t7GJEbR0sbNPkizpBX3-QWksru4Pi2xl7zmkct84CSP3yGEFkeIhAo9uIDtBa6zVYQC8ZTQX3hs_7L5NDwWpKqy2g" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="320" data-original-width="320" height="240" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgyrHt_m4VlAmtJ62Ed4mCpYVHAqfwo4ZwwZ6PRe5-bV0jkj2-8oERh3ZqMJxLxK-DeOMnOl4Tb4iYXPs9mMvO9LMpTcXvx4Guo4t7GJEbR0sbNPkizpBX3-QWksru4Pi2xl7zmkct84CSP3yGEFkeIhAo9uIDtBa6zVYQC8ZTQX3hs_7L5NDwWpKqy2g" width="240" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">And Voila! Lovely.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEisAqEXO0Lw00vB9tFd4FircUgwFZ8iQkiI0hYBFl5Y71KI1V531OWl15az5UcWflrDOx1tduacJuEppPe_9UnMZur8vLd6mAU8fBm7eudjem2qU_dCI9yd83OT-Vnlv2ayuzWEBRilYcSkQb-MW2Te7ZOF-i5l0sOOuxTWBK__owd3B16q5f9U4DuX1g/s4032/IMG_3003.JPG" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="4032" data-original-width="3024" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEisAqEXO0Lw00vB9tFd4FircUgwFZ8iQkiI0hYBFl5Y71KI1V531OWl15az5UcWflrDOx1tduacJuEppPe_9UnMZur8vLd6mAU8fBm7eudjem2qU_dCI9yd83OT-Vnlv2ayuzWEBRilYcSkQb-MW2Te7ZOF-i5l0sOOuxTWBK__owd3B16q5f9U4DuX1g/w480-h640/IMG_3003.JPG" width="480" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">Back together again, it ended up with both air bleeds still full in and the idle trimmer @ +4, idling happily as desired.</span></div><br /><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span><p></p><p><br /></p>Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-88087458637699458132022-04-03T04:29:00.002-07:002022-04-03T05:44:55.984-07:00Undoing an electronic TPS reset on a non linear TPS model - in this instance an ST4S<div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"> .<br /></span><span style="font-family: verdana;">An issue that comes up with the 59M and 5AM ecu models is the electronic TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) reset capacity the diagnostic tools for these ecu have. The electronic TPS reset is specifically for linear TPS models. It has no place for non linear TPS models, but is often performed when it shouldn't be by people who have no idea what they're doing, and can cause issues as it overrules the underlying throttle opening to TPS output relationship to some extent.</span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: verdana;">How I don't actually know, I don't have the knowledge to understand what the software does when things that shouldn't be done are.</span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: verdana;">For those who aren't aware of the differing TPS styles and setting procedures, there's some info here:</span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span><span style="color: #f4cccc;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><a href="http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati4vthrottleb.html" target="_blank">4V Non linear TPS setting<br /></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana;"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjHnrjVaBsU" target="_blank">4V Non linear TPS setting video</a> <br /></span><span style="font-family: verdana;"><a href="http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vthrottleb.html" target="_blank">2V Non linear TPS setting<br /></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana;"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku6pS9yTvjY" target="_blank">2V Non linear TPS setting video<br /></a></span><a href="http://www.bikeboy.org/ducatitps.html" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: verdana;">Linear TPS setting</span></a></span><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">On to the story - A fellow from interstate emailed me about his poor running ST4S. The ecu had been reflashed by a Rexxer agent for the previous owner. He had had it back to the Rexxer agent, who had performed a TPS reset via a diagnostic tool as he had also done when it was originally flashed. It was no better afterwards. In my experience the ST4S 59M Rexxer file is pretty good, so there should have been improvement to be had.</span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: verdana;">I replied that firstly, he needed to undo the electronic TPS reset. The first time I came across this was a 2002 M900ie that was showing 3 degrees throttle opening on the diagnostic tool @ 700mV TPS output. I had no idea what to do to fix it, but started guessing at what might help. Given that flashing the ecu with my CDC tool tends to reset most background settings, I figured I'd try that. So I read the file from the ecu and then flashed it straight back in again, just to make sure nothing else changed.</span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">After that, the TPS voltage output to ecu diagnostic throttle angle relationship appeared to be about right. I then carried out the appropriate non linear TPS baseline procedure and the rest of the tune set up and it was then fine. Well, as good as a std ecu 2002 M900ie can be.</span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">To do this himself, I recommended he download the Guzziddiag IAW5XReader and IAW5xWriter </span><span style="font-family: verdana;">software from </span><a href="https://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/" style="font-family: verdana;"><span style="color: red;">here</span></a><span style="font-family: verdana;"> </span><span style="font-family: verdana;">and buy the required cable from Lonelec </span><a href="https://www.lonelec.com/product/guzzidiag-3pin-interface-cable-kit/" style="font-family: verdana;"><span style="color: red;">here</span></a><span style="font-family: verdana;"><span style="color: red;"> </span>for a guaranteed working set up. I also asked that he carry out each step of the process individually, and ride the bike afterwards to see what actually worked and what didn't as such, and provide me with the feedback.</span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">Feedback as follows:</span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></span><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>I reflashed the ECU with its original file as you
suggested. </i></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>Bike ran better immediately. Misfire/stumble gone.</i></span></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><i><br /></i></span></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">This was the part I was mainly interested in. A simple before/after only related to the ecu reflashing, and it worked as I'd hoped. The next part of it was the baseline TPS set up, and the impact of that depends on what has or hasn't been done previously, and how well (or not).</span></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: verdana;"><i><br /></i></span></span><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>We then followed very closely your video and blog on the TPS reset. </i></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>The TPS looked new…no paint to be found at all
and had Allen screw heads.<br /></i></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i><br /></i></span></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>The initial idle throttle angle was set at 1.6 deg. </i></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>With fast idle connection off etc it dropped to 1.3. </i></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>Backed out the butterfly throttle adjustment as directed.<br /></i></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>We reset the TPS back to zero….played with this setting to
ensure we were on zero and not under, a</i></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>s we were relying on the diagnostic tool we only had
degrees. </i></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>We minutely jiggled the setting up to 0.1 and 0.2 degrees
then noticed tightening the screws brought it back down a tad to zero.<br /></i></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i><br /></i></span></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>So I am guessing its now pretty close.( If we had used
voltage it might have been easier). </i></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>Reset the idle at 2.6 degrees (USA Bike). </i></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>Refit the fairings and took it for a brief ride.</i></span></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i><br /></i></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>Huge improvement. </i></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>Smooth throttle response from low revs. </i></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>Engine tone is different, no backfiring or popping on
deceleration. </i></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>Idle is better, smoother. </i></span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Slow commuter speeds much improved second and third
gear 3000 rpm cruising very acceptable.</span><br /></i></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></i></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">Again, an improvement as hoped and generally expected when the baseline is done properly. It really disappoints me that so many of these bikes aren't set up right, and the rubbish reputation they get as a result.</span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">Thinking about it now, as another possibility, you could also try doing another electronic reset to confirm what throttle opening value it resets to. Then perform the TPS baseline set up procedure, but finish by setting the TPS output voltage to the theoretical corresponding voltage for the required throttle opening. Ie, 2.4 degrees = 404Mv, 2.6 degrees = 423mV. Then do another electronic TPS reset. I wonder if that would also work. Maybe someone can try it.</span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">.</span></div>Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-11535210384984593962020-09-20T03:14:00.004-07:002020-09-26T18:17:37.082-07:00Multistrada 1000 not idling - an ecu based solution.<span style="font-family: verdana;"><span face="Verdana, sans-serif">I had an MTS1000 in for some work, part of which was a service after sitting for quite a long time. One owner bike, but the owner's recollection of what has happened to it service wise over the years was one of the vaguest I've encountered, and the dash had been replaced twice under warranty so total km travelled was even less clear. With the current odometer reading around 13,000km, I would assume it had had at least once valve clearance service, but I think that's possibly a poor assumption.</span><br />
<span face="Verdana, sans-serif"><br /></span>
<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">Compounding all this was the fact the bill, in dealing with a heap of other stuff, was rapidly closing on a number around the same as the bike's current value. Which means I'm not too willing to go digging more than I need to. On one of these, to get to the bits you need to for a valve clearance adjustment, you start removing the panels at the back, move all the way to the front, remove more bits then remove the tank. Time consuming, and time is money and the money was running for cover.</span><br />
<span face="Verdana, sans-serif"><br /></span>
<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">So an "annual" service is what it got - fluids, timing belts, etc. I checked the throttle set up, and that's where it went a bit hmmmmm.</span><br />
<span face="Verdana, sans-serif"><br /></span>
<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">The MTS1000 was the first Ducati with an idle control valve ("stepper motor", etc). Being a 2003 model, it was also the first with the 5AM ecu, in this instance the 103 hardware version. When they came out, I recall being told that the throttle opening, as displayed by the diagnostic software, was "throttle opening plus idle control valve equivalent". So when you check the throttle opening angle cold you might see 4.5 degrees, and hot 3.5 degrees or so. Confusing at best, but when that's what you've got to deal with, that's what you do.</span><br />
<span face="Verdana, sans-serif"><br /></span>
<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">Any model with an idle control valve doesn't need the air bleeds (the little screws on the sides of the throttle bodies that allow air to bypass the throttle blades) opened, as their primary function is to allow you to set the idle speed. I also use the air bleeds to equalise the idle mixture between the cylinders, in which case you open the air bleed of the richer cylinder to lean it off to be the same as the leaner cylinder. Meaning one air bleed should be fully closed, although some variation to that will be discussed later.</span><br />
<span face="Verdana, sans-serif"><br /></span>
<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">On this bike, the air bleeds were both open 1 1/2 turns. The idle trimmer setting of +29 was also a bit concerning, but given the air bleeds were out that far, the trimmer setting didn't really surprise me.</span><br />
<span face="Verdana, sans-serif"><br /></span>
<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">I don't recall it being overly hard to start and get running when I first started it. Not for a bike that had been sitting for 3 years anyway - the fact it even fired up surprised me. As it warmed up I got set to check the throttle body set up and wound both air bleeds fully in to adjust the running balance, then got on to the idle mixture.</span><br />
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<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">I found the mixture quite dirty, by which I mean it had a lot of Hydrocarbons and Oxygen in the sample. This is usually an indication of richness, so knocking the trimmer back was the obvious thing to do. Dropping it back to 0 both leaned it out (not as much as I might have thought though) and cleaned it up (not as much as I might have hoped though), but the dirtiness remained. Sometimes, the best way to fix this is to crack the air bleeds a 1/4 turn. It's amazing how it can drop the HC and O2. I suspect it may have something to do with the black carbon crap that builds up around the edge of the throttle blade in its closed position, but when it's a couple of hours work to even check that out, you usually don't.</span><br />
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<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">I ended up at 1/2 turn out on one, and 1/4 on the other for around 4.5% CO. But the idle control valve didn't appear to be doing what I would expect on restart. I tried doing the test via the diagnostic tool, but it didn't seem to want to do that. I pulled the hoses off and blew air through the nipples into the manifolds, and they were clear, and with the ignition off the valve was open so I blew back through the valve into the airbox, and that was clear. But when you turned the key on the valve went to the fully closed position as it's meant to, but then didn't come out again. I sprayed some carb cleaner into the outlet nipples, then let it sit for a while, then blew that out and tried some Inox to lube it up and then it would, at key on, close then open again. Fixed!</span><br />
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<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">Not, as it turned out. By this time the engine was cold. With the little valve to manifold hoses back on, hitting the start button got a fire and run at very low rpm for 10 seconds maybe, then stall. I pulled the hoses off, so it had no obstruction, and at that it idled a little longer before it stalled. I could see the valve doing a little bit of movement during this, whereas previously it'd been doing nothing at all, and I was thinking maybe it's just too lean with the excessive air leak it now has.</span><br />
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<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">Another trick I try with an idle control valve is to disconnect the valve with the ignition on, then with it disconnected turn it off and on again to make sure it has logged a fault, then turn it off, connect it again, turn it back on and clear the fault. That can sometimes wake them up to some extent, but not here.</span><br />
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<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">On a previous MTS1000 with an issue like this I had played with the base throttle opening (as in what I did to the SC1000 outlined in the Linear TPS setting report, which, I must say, hasn't really worked since) and tried different ecu files and it sort of ended up ok-ish, without being overly convincing. But, as above, getting that into this one was not an option timewise.</span><br />
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<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">When you have one of these idle control bikes that won't, one of the first things to do is a TPS reset, the electronic procedure via the diagnostic tool. And, coupled with that, is making sure the idle stops haven't been played with. There's a fairly obvious stop easily adjusted just behind the throttle cable wheel on the RH side of the throttle bodies, and fairly obvious tempts those that like to fiddle. Not a good idea on these, but not uncommonly messed with. The much less obvious stop between the throttle bodies is very rarely messed with, so you usually have a fail safe there.</span><br />
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<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">So, particularly if the paint is missing, you wind that out and make sure it has no influence. You can see the throttle opening change on the diagnostic tool if it is an issue. I've seen winding that previously messed with stop out and doing a TPS solve issues like this before. I must add, at this point, that I've also seen too tight throttle cables have a similar effect, back to the BMW F650GS days.</span><br />
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<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">Anyway, I did a TPS reset to no effect. I read the file out of the ecu and flashed it back in again (seen that work before). Didn't help. Tried a different file with the same result. I was thinking I might give a 610 ecu and file a go, just to see if anything changed.</span><br />
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<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">But I thought I'd have a look at the original file anyway. The specified idle speed is no higher than 1300 rpm, but given it was nowhere near that I thought I'd raise it to 1600, just to see if anything changed. Also, given that the engine would start then peter out and I've seen that due to not enough enrichment, I got into the start up table and richened the soon after start columns to see if that helped.</span></span><div><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana;">Below are target idle speed maps (1 row x 16 temp breaks is how you would define this one), which is measured against engine temperature, for two of the MTS1000 files I have, plus what I tried setting it to.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjOkVF_QiktBqFCfGi-N4UIMA8dRaeYnYQemXETgs_acD9UijfXcUUaTD8MOvXT-hb74cQbYKITP3Aua8ArvXmUog9IFwRKl4QHoZHlWXtu1HkJ_4r8pJPIF8_GTiXN_kDNg6nxuTUXZ6Z-/s1125/mts1000+1.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="78" data-original-width="1125" height="44" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjOkVF_QiktBqFCfGi-N4UIMA8dRaeYnYQemXETgs_acD9UijfXcUUaTD8MOvXT-hb74cQbYKITP3Aua8ArvXmUog9IFwRKl4QHoZHlWXtu1HkJ_4r8pJPIF8_GTiXN_kDNg6nxuTUXZ6Z-/w640-h44/mts1000+1.png" width="640" /></a></div><br /><span style="font-family: verdana;"><span face="Verdana, sans-serif">With the original files, the idle rpm I would have expected to see (if all was going to plan) was 1,300 rpm cold and 1,200 rpm hot. Keep in mind that I didn't put 1,600 rpm in the target rpm table because I actually wanted 1,600. I put 1,600 in because I wanted to see if it could do it. There's no point changing it from 1,300 to 1,350, because it's too small a change to really notice definitively. Make a big change - if it works, great. If not, move on to the next thing.</span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana;"><span face="Verdana, sans-serif"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana;"><span face="Verdana, sans-serif">The start up table is a pretty cool thing. Back in the P7 days, there was only an engine temperature correction table to give enrichment for both differing engein temps and cold starting. Now that might sound like the same thing, but there's differences in fuelling required based in how cold you're starting from and how long it's been running from cold. I tended to bump this up a bit on some bikes, so that, at say 5 degrees celsius engine temp, it might have in the range of 40% enrichment to make it light up nicely. I actually think some of the early 851 start issues, where people would claim the bike was "flooding", were due to not enough enrichment to start, but enough to foul plugs and send it all pear shaped. Sometimes a bike will crank and not fire from cold, but if you let it sit for a minute or two then try again will start straight up, and I think that's because the residual fuel from the first hit, when added to the second hit, is enough and off it goes. Just a theory. I've seen lots of late model stuff - M1000, M1100, Guzzi Breva/Sport models like this.</span><br />
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<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">But, with my 851, I find that if it's a hot day - say 30 degrees ambient - it'll fire then not be so happy because it doesn't have enough fuel to keep running due to the trim at 30 degrees not being enough for a "cold start". Bump that up and it'll start fine, but then on a cold day it's already up and running by the time it hits 30 degrees engine temp and then it's too rich and gets lumpy as it warms up.</span><br />
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<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">The start up table adds fuel based on rotations since started, and is a decaying enrichment table. Adds quite a lot more fuel for the first 4 or so rotations, then starts dropping it off in the next 4, etc, up to 2,000 or 4,000 rotations, depending on the ecu. This first appeared with the 1.6M, and it means the engine temp trim table has much less enrichment - usually in the range of 15% maximum. But add the start up table's 20 - 30% and it'll fire up and go.</span><br />
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<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">This is why the 1.5M ecu runs rich every time you start them for the first 3 minutes or so. It was annoying there, but better applied here with the 59M/5AM series.</span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana;">In this instance I made it 10% richer for the columns of 8 to 510 rotations since starting, which would be the first 30 seconds or so of running. 10% is usually enough to pick them up nicely.<br />
<span face="Verdana, sans-serif"><br /></span><span face="Verdana, sans-serif">But, none of that shit made the slightest difference. Well, it smelt a lot more fuelly after I turned it off after a couple of 10 - 20 second poor running start attempts.</span><br />
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<span face="Verdana, sans-serif">The next step was to look elsewhere. One of my pet loves when trying to make things idle is ignition advance. As in adding more. These bikes have a separate idle </span></span><span style="font-family: verdana;">ignition</span><span style="font-family: verdana;"><span face="Verdana, sans-serif"> advance table, a single line map if you like - 1 row, 32 rpm break columns - and with that you can set the advance when the throttle is closed. As the lowest rpm break point is usually 900 or 1,000 rpm, it's well under the desired / target idle speed and you can usually taper the amount so at 1,000 rpm it might have 15 degrees, but at the rpm you want it to idle at - and here if it has an idle control valve you need to look at the target idle speed as set in the ecu file - you can drop it back to maybe 10 or so degrees, and then the same again at the rpm break above the target idle speed so the idle is nice and stable and not trying to hunt higher as it picks up engine heat, etc. Meaning when it's cold and not wanting to idle high, the increased </span></span><span style="font-family: verdana;">ignition</span><span style="font-family: verdana;"><span face="Verdana, sans-serif"> advance at the low idle speed will help keep it running.</span><br />
<span face="Verdana, sans-serif"><br /></span><span face="Verdana, sans-serif">On old 851SP - 916SP, which have 290 to 300 degrees cam duration at 1mm lift, you can go up to 25 degrees or so advance at idle and the difference can be quite amazing. I</span></span><span style="font-family: verdana;">gnition</span><span style="font-family: verdana;"><span face="Verdana, sans-serif"> advance really is the best stuff. I have an 851/888SP2/3/4 eprom that has the break points moved around a bit so it has 25 degrees advance at 1,000 rpm and then 15 degrees advance at both 1,250 and 1,500 rpm. That way it has a heap of advance to support the low idle when cold, and less at the desired 1,250 rpm idle speed and then not changing for 250 rpm so that the idle speed is nicely controllable.</span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana;"><span face="Verdana, sans-serif"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana;"><span face="Verdana, sans-serif">Anyway, I'm meandering - if you have an idle control valve as the MTS1000 does here, and it's doing its job, then you won't have a low idle speed at cold idle. Well, you shouldn't, and that was the problem with this MTS.</span></span><div><span style="font-family: verdana;"><span face="Verdana, sans-serif"><br /></span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana;">Some of the files have quite surprisingly low </span><span style="font-family: verdana;">ignition </span><span style="font-family: verdana;">advance numbers at idle, in the range of 0 to 2 degrees. Not as bad an many of the MV models, which have retard, but still enough to lead to some idle instability. Part of the table from the MTS1000 file is shown below.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiCqOQKWmcqbn7bj8rRBCbdSUqFE_OrrYNxdmVT1rYeimdMXVY0x2eGXHRcCR9fVV5bAT7SWYPeZzZRV2K3YwDd0bve3a_7TCXRo83vOQU2JHnswBAXBAE0Nrw4zBFt5RbPFwx4ynImO6Ak/s705/mts1000+2.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="61" data-original-width="705" height="56" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiCqOQKWmcqbn7bj8rRBCbdSUqFE_OrrYNxdmVT1rYeimdMXVY0x2eGXHRcCR9fVV5bAT7SWYPeZzZRV2K3YwDd0bve3a_7TCXRo83vOQU2JHnswBAXBAE0Nrw4zBFt5RbPFwx4ynImO6Ak/w640-h56/mts1000+2.png" width="640" /></a></div><br /><span style="font-family: verdana;">Now, some are possibly thinking that going from 0.5 degrees advance to 15 degrees advance is an extreme change. Correct, it is, but again it's a case of making a change that is noticeable, and really a change that you want. I usually use a rule of (preferably) at least 10 degrees advance per 1,000 rpm. That's a bit ish, depending on what you're doing, but it's certainly a lot more valid than 0.5. At low throttle opening cruise I'll usually add another 5 to 10. Some of my revised </span><span style="font-family: verdana;">ignition </span><span style="font-family: verdana;">maps for the late models bikes will see an additional 10 to 15 degrees at low throttle over the original. For an MV, more.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana;">Given the target idle speed is no lower then 1,200 rpm, the advance under that is somewhat irrelevant as long as the idle speed does what it should. But if it doesn't, or the engine speed drops under load, it should recover. With 5 degrees less at 1,400 rpm, there's no chance of the idle creeping up, all else being equal. The advance above that rpm can influence how the engine returns to idle once the clutch is pulled in, and having it low there gets rid of any holding up issues. Some of the Guzzi Breva/Sport models would do that, and cutting the advance down a lot would fix the issue. It's not really otherwise important - there's no actual running condition where the engine needs to support load at 1,800 rpm with the throttle closed. I did have a 1098R like that at one point - it was an issue with them I was told. I had one go at it, but I think the owner decided I was a dickhead before letting me have a second try (it can be an iterative process), so I didn't get to fix it.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana;">With the increased ignition advance change, the bike idled happily from cold. As the engine temp rose, the idle speed started creeping up too, getting to over 1,400 rpm before I turned it off. That made me realise that the issue previously was it wasn't capable of reaching that rpm. Why I don't know, as it would have been fine when new like that. Possibly it had a lot of closing clearance, and the high hydrocarbons could back that up. But it was much happier now, and a win's a win. With that, I reset the target idle speed and start up tables back to their original setting, meaning the only ongoing change was the </span><span style="font-family: verdana;">ignition</span><span style="font-family: verdana;"> advance at idle. Well, that and the idle trimmer not being +29 any more, which I would hope had made a decent change to how it ran.</span></div></div><div><span style="font-family: verdana;"><br /></span></div>Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-35761349390986773922020-07-11T05:26:00.000-07:002020-07-11T17:51:40.885-07:00Exhaust design - 2 into 1 versus 2 into 2 on the Ducati 400SS<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Although my 400SS is one of the 20 officially imported into Australia in 1993, I didn't know anything about them until we had a second hand one come into Moto One a few years later, and we all stood and laughed at its slowness. I did however take the chance to dyno a 600SS once to compare the 2 into 1 header to the M600 40mm 2 into 2 header. All the 2V Monsters - 400 to 1000 - had 40mm headers std. When I did the M600/600SS comparison the whole "different bike" thing may have clouded the result somewhere, but comparatively the 2 into 1 600SS (blue) made a little more power under 4,500 rpm and less power above that. But bike and muffler differences may have clouded that.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEha8EbkEcKYuKHDcgmMSY8Lka8T5S2gcEH_fRu1EULUgwCkCzmTqsHaYJUCpdUN0JDbzu-4yni00RaBWHzTUc79EkMzfrXlMU-ZIbm6KG1LqZ0UYzf2k4Iao4VQ83P-6Z0arMdFmEC5kmeX/s1600/400ss+2.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="598" data-original-width="1064" height="358" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEha8EbkEcKYuKHDcgmMSY8Lka8T5S2gcEH_fRu1EULUgwCkCzmTqsHaYJUCpdUN0JDbzu-4yni00RaBWHzTUc79EkMzfrXlMU-ZIbm6KG1LqZ0UYzf2k4Iao4VQ83P-6Z0arMdFmEC5kmeX/s640/400ss+2.png" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">So with the 400SS back together I took the opportunity to test the 2 into 1 versus the 2 into 2 that it wore in the Monster. As to what is the same, well - engine, cam timing, gearing, rear tyre (the same actual tyre), muffler (ever dependable Megacycle). Different - carbs, carb jetting, exhaust headers.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The 2 into 1 header came with the 600SS when it arrived in 1994. To help distance it from the 750SS price point wise (the 750SS also gained a second front disc for 1994), it had the 2 into 1 header set from the 350 / 400SS. The 350SS came with an </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">aluminium wrap</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"> black steel muffler like a 750SS (not sure if it was the same part or not) and the 400SS had the aluminium sleeve muffler like the 900SS. The header itself was smaller in diameter than both the 750 (which was 35mm od) and the 900 (40mm od) and the primary tubes were quite a bit longer.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Photo shows 400SS 2 into 1 on left, M600 2 into 2 on right. The 2 into 2 features the stamped steel crossover which originally appeared on the 750 Paso and is truly an inspired design for an otherwise complicated part made simple for volume production. It works a treat. My 2 into 1 (hereafter known as "</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">original header chopped up into kind of crappy 2 into 1") not so treat filled.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEimZOt-v7VoXQSw2xBm2Zdejk1-dYfRzCP075EYbVxaeQovbcLJJdvQv6BV6sJL09ZZUQ1XVa7i-pJUtcad5zN6ETHJ2aJgdXdkz83quUa4_xABhdSlcqzf2-Kl4PGava_M7ILhu3WA9iy7/s1600/400ss+2-1+header+comp.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="300" data-original-width="811" height="236" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEimZOt-v7VoXQSw2xBm2Zdejk1-dYfRzCP075EYbVxaeQovbcLJJdvQv6BV6sJL09ZZUQ1XVa7i-pJUtcad5zN6ETHJ2aJgdXdkz83quUa4_xABhdSlcqzf2-Kl4PGava_M7ILhu3WA9iy7/s640/400ss+2-1+header+comp.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">This being the </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">original header chopped up into kind of crappy 2 into 1. Blue lines indicate the flow path from one header into the other, possibly part of the problem.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhvqenfNfoWzKbp4ff5Gz3Bu6MkKqIiwq9RpwtOnOz7VcTvD6gxMFB5eUJ_B0xvNOPnQ8V4IEpfo2cYkzQ6tPbQ00M_QhglqAk-aiam4aFIoMoGAD58v0HigBh6J5B8WzjvRnDjxVO5iPBi/s1600/161105+%252813%2529sr.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="612" data-original-width="816" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhvqenfNfoWzKbp4ff5Gz3Bu6MkKqIiwq9RpwtOnOz7VcTvD6gxMFB5eUJ_B0xvNOPnQ8V4IEpfo2cYkzQ6tPbQ00M_QhglqAk-aiam4aFIoMoGAD58v0HigBh6J5B8WzjvRnDjxVO5iPBi/s640/161105+%252813%2529sr.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The result surprised me a little, given what I thought I might see based on the above graph. But it also backed up the few other tests I've done with 2 into 1 exhaust. That being, a 2 into 2 always works better. Never seen it go the other way.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">As to what those other results are, I can think of two of my own. Moto Guzzi Sport 1100i, where I made a full exhaust for the bike with 2 into 1 and 2 into 2 cross overs. Otherwise same header and muffler. Green is 2 into 1. Had a noticeable top endy feel to it.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">And Minne (M600 with a 750 engine) before the valves, cams and comp, fitted with an old Gio.Ca.Moto M600 2 into 1. 43mm od pipe into 48mm od collector, of similar design to the 400SS 2 into 1, but with lots of spring joints, etc. Red is 2 into 1.</span><br />
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<a href="http://www.bikeboy.org/graphs/750mg12.gif" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="473" data-original-width="613" height="492" src="https://www.bikeboy.org/graphs/750mg12.gif" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I was also told many years ago that the improvement the Aprilia / Akrappovic accessory 2 into 2 full system brought to the first gen Mille (std 2 into 1 exhaust with the great big muffler) was more midrange. Which again is contrary to the 2 into 1 myth.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">So that's my background to the 2 into 1 thing. </span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The graph below shows the 400 engine in the SS with the 2 into 1 in red, in the Monster with the original 40mm M600 2 into 2 headers in green and in the Monster with my original header chopped up into kind of crappy 2 into 1 in blue. Peak power at just over 80mph is 9,500 rpm. The 400SS top end air/fuel is an issue, and with more main jet it may make more top end power. The red curve certainly improved a couple with more air to offset its richness. The midrange air/fuel is similar to the Monster jetting, so comparatively at least should be similarly crappy.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">While the </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">original header chopped up into kind of crappy 2 into 1 did give a stronger bottom end (compared to the 2 into 1 of the green curve it has shorter, larger diameter primaries so it's not following the myth there either), it all went pear shaped over 7,500 rpm. Realistically, that's about as hard as I revved it anyway, so for me it wasn't a big issue. But the knowledge that I'd made it somewhat worse annoyed me. I think it's the way I modified the stamped sheet cross over into the 2 into 1 merge, and maybe the fact that it's all the same diameter isn't helping. But I'm not inclined to find out and that header set only fits a small block Monster with rear sets so it's a bit restricted in application to play with.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Comparison of the two 2 into 1's below, 400SS is blue. The funny thing is that the 400SS has a real pick up in performance you can feel around 7,000 rpm. Maybe it's as the fuelling goes from too rich to too lean, dunno. Definitely noticeable, whereas the Monster with the 2 into 2, which has a much less smooth dyno curve, wasn't.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Torque and air/fuel shows the taper in the 400SS air/fuel curve that I'm sure you can feel as it gets better (before going to shit).</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjKY1h1za3XeTsShMzwB2ouR1XPDEVcXuykQNveHHy8qCuV4meUwe_N7-3l31GtWRm84wi52PQHZv3KCXP11Dc3qyjCWw1D5CfkBSj_H_rZeJc67vcYU1bnUcH1OdC2FkzqqwrSntfBKXY0/s1600/400ss+4.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="598" data-original-width="1064" height="358" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjKY1h1za3XeTsShMzwB2ouR1XPDEVcXuykQNveHHy8qCuV4meUwe_N7-3l31GtWRm84wi52PQHZv3KCXP11Dc3qyjCWw1D5CfkBSj_H_rZeJc67vcYU1bnUcH1OdC2FkzqqwrSntfBKXY0/s640/400ss+4.png" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The jetting also varies a bit - they're kind of wacky. The 350SS and 400SS std jetting variation is bizarre for what is essentially the same bike, produced at the same time. The jetting I'm using in the 400 is not quite std. They use a </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">much softer slide spring than anything else - it's almost like a Factory Pro or Dynojet spring. I</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"> did have them in it when it first went together, but swapped the heavier "in everything else" springs into it to make it a bit richer. Maybe too rich now, not sure. Everything except the 600SS use larger holes in the slide with the heavier springs too. Maybe that transfers more vacuum to the diaphragm.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">JD Hord made the comment on Facebook that "</span><span style="color: #050505;"><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">I did a bunch of messing around with springs on a Honda Hawk one time, and best I could tell, at steady state they had barely any effect, but throttle response did seem slightly better with heavier springs. I suppose that's because it would pull more vacuum and get fuel moving a bit quicker into the airstream."</span></span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">It did seem to help the throttle response and starting, but I also richened the idle mixture a bit as well.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgoFguBUn-f66iv0zjAFeF9OkHT6WOHUq7RXHBdTtR5qJep6z6lEfRK4FVF-tGGp9lHQq2YdcZgvXe-X_10Ysp78R5SdebZlH8SomqdXGykqDbLYWgBAwvRUhO-308DZ7MKOZJ616Ys8Xot/s1600/400ss+jetting.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="261" data-original-width="452" height="368" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgoFguBUn-f66iv0zjAFeF9OkHT6WOHUq7RXHBdTtR5qJep6z6lEfRK4FVF-tGGp9lHQq2YdcZgvXe-X_10Ysp78R5SdebZlH8SomqdXGykqDbLYWgBAwvRUhO-308DZ7MKOZJ616Ys8Xot/s640/400ss+jetting.png" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The 2001 M400 uses the same spec carb as all the M600, so I ran the original M600 carbs on this engine when it was in the Monster. The jetting is quite different in those two, but the midrange WOT fuelling is similar on the dyno. I've got a heap more mindless rambling to do on the jetting stuff, watch out for that blog post - it'll be coma inducing.</span>Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-78423524788840961272020-06-28T02:47:00.000-07:002020-06-28T02:47:25.109-07:00Playing with a Ducati fuel level sender<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">I put a post on my Facebook page a while ago about Dcuati parts not being covered by warranty if not fitted by an authorised workshop. The part that prompted that was a fuel level sender I had purchased for a mid 90's 900SS. The dealer I bought it from did cover it for me, but that was what they were being told.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Anyway, in that case my customer needed a fuel sender for his 900SS as the light wasn't working. Shorting the terminals in the loom tank connector made the light come on. Pretty easy diagnosis. I ordered one in, fitted it, made sure the light was on with the tank empty then put the fuel back in it and made sure the light went off. It did. Bingedy boom, Bob's ya f--king auntie.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">As it turned out, Bob was an imposter. The owner called to say the light wasn't coming on. He came back, I ran the test again as above - no light. I ordered another sender and when it arrived it was fitted and job done - I haven't heard of any further issues.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Which meant I had this dud sender on the bench. The dealer didn't want it back, and I tend to keep all this sort of stuff just because connectors, etc, can be handy. And I was also convinced that when I had fitted it, I'd checked it properly. But, as with most things that end up on a bench, it had sat simply because I'd had no need to consider it further.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Until Friday, when the 400SS hit the road. Although I've owned this bike since 2012, its never been near the road as a bike, and there were a few things about it that I didn't know. Given how much of a dud it was when I bought it (imagine an Ebayer not telling the whole truth!) I shouldn't have been surprised when I realised on Friday, while heading over to see the club man for the permit papers, that the trip meter wasn't doing anything and that I should have been quite a bit through the 5 litres of fuel I'd put in the dry tank after it was painted. Enough that the fuel light should be on. I made a precautionary fill up on the way back and put over 14 litres into it without trying, so it was low.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">The sender in the bike would most likely be the original, certainly it's the old design.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj6KlUAlZUY-9uPs1Xh_n4xfa_D5D_qjFDJ_JjHz8DlKKDI4mvUUsTiwMHbLt0cpV6t9_tknNxdI4x9Kc4TifIVJ1ezMfiNZgw0rOILBRNGJeTpxpsGodtZoTytZCI02z7v7a3jxy9AfrVI/s1600/200627+%252814%2529s.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1008" data-original-width="756" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj6KlUAlZUY-9uPs1Xh_n4xfa_D5D_qjFDJ_JjHz8DlKKDI4mvUUsTiwMHbLt0cpV6t9_tknNxdI4x9Kc4TifIVJ1ezMfiNZgw0rOILBRNGJeTpxpsGodtZoTytZCI02z7v7a3jxy9AfrVI/s1600/200627+%252814%2529s.jpg" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">The current sender to suit the carby SS, 59210161A, is one of the typical black plastic tubes types with the correct eyelets for the fuel pump terminals and is around $330 locally. As such, I was pretty keen to not have to buy a new one. Hence my decision to pick up the alleged dud and see what happened. I plugged it into the connector, turned the key on and waited the 20 or so seconds for the time delay and the fuel light came on. Result! Turned it upside down, heard the float go clonk, light off. Turned it up the right way again, wait 20 seconds, light back on. Ok. So what's wrong with it you might ask? I certainly did. I figured I might as well fit it properly and see what happened.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">59210161A, image stolen from Belt and Bevel, who allegedly have one in stock.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhGYM8ac91Ix8uKmYRehtGsncS4JSkzv9Fr3to1t_NUivsgpRRRvIQnlXHRVENfiAKiigOXQ8RB6QVy2jk2z2MnxNEctfIF7wntSgfX4282a7Mj9RCQmM_pCcKTksuAtBg6EYFVz1NyRp6u/s1600/59210161A.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="600" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhGYM8ac91Ix8uKmYRehtGsncS4JSkzv9Fr3to1t_NUivsgpRRRvIQnlXHRVENfiAKiigOXQ8RB6QVy2jk2z2MnxNEctfIF7wntSgfX4282a7Mj9RCQmM_pCcKTksuAtBg6EYFVz1NyRp6u/s320/59210161A.jpg" width="320" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Short answer - what happened was, it didn't work. Things started well - the light was on when the tank was empty. But it didn't go out terribly convincingly when it was covered in fuel. I usually find these things like some sort of vibration to bring the light on - I often do these tests with the engine running or, if not, tap the tank gently repeatedly. In this instance, that developed into me going it perhaps a little more aggressively than ideal with a long screw driver handle and eventually the light went out. As anticipated, it didn't come back on when the fuel was drained again, so out the sender came.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Taking a step that I usually don't with a new "sealed" electrical component that doesn't work, I thought I pull it apart and have a Captain Cook. Nothing to lose anyway.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">The top has a small metallic stud sort of thing on top, which looked to me like it might be solder. Applying the soldering iron confirmed that, and the solder shook off. The plastic cap turned out to not be retained by that though, it just clips in and out</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjNxb2YJqsQ_uEEmelrkMf4ryN63I6oFjA_mBleZQp2yEF812wiToRvEQxeD_dJ_uoBfO0JN-65NRC1-GCufRMxera17zY3Oa7yPhps4oixRzdmXidwC3eCEvtaWvlNUrivfi1zs9QUXNTW/s1600/200627+%25286%2529s.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1008" data-original-width="756" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjNxb2YJqsQ_uEEmelrkMf4ryN63I6oFjA_mBleZQp2yEF812wiToRvEQxeD_dJ_uoBfO0JN-65NRC1-GCufRMxera17zY3Oa7yPhps4oixRzdmXidwC3eCEvtaWvlNUrivfi1zs9QUXNTW/s640/200627+%25286%2529s.jpg" width="480" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">The solder retains the little steel top hat that stops the float. Once the solder was gone, it pulled off with a little twisting with pliers.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg4s5wsB8burhOQPy3nFa8-LKfrV8zbvwoyAbkRNoOZQbbQyKmjwdVmeIBpS0hd6e9VEIrUR-LPHadPxBuNvYZH0z-NlLxR2tGPYy5XKCNCkB6eCIHX0hVWsn16i4EPeNmEMbPkNi9zVOsb/s1600/200627+%252811%2529s.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1008" data-original-width="756" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg4s5wsB8burhOQPy3nFa8-LKfrV8zbvwoyAbkRNoOZQbbQyKmjwdVmeIBpS0hd6e9VEIrUR-LPHadPxBuNvYZH0z-NlLxR2tGPYy5XKCNCkB6eCIHX0hVWsn16i4EPeNmEMbPkNi9zVOsb/s640/200627+%252811%2529s.jpg" width="480" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Taking the float out, it looked to me like it had some ridges at the ends that were maybe jamming, so I put it in the lathe and tried to machine it a little. In hindsight, I wouldn't recommend doing that at all. It looked like something hard, but it sort of powdered when I hit it with the tool and it's also soft and doesn't hold too well. I made a bit of a mess of it, and then wondered if the outer was some sort of sealing cover that stopped fuel getting into the float's foamy cell. I guess if it does fill with fuel the light will just stay on. Note to self time. Undesired result is below.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Reassembled and refitted again, it delivered a similar result. This time, after the sender was covered with fuel, the light just wouldn't go out. No amount of tapping, etc, made any difference. In an attempt to move it around a little, I lifted the front of the tank and noticed a heap of air bubbles coming out the two little holes in the cap. I found that a little odd, so drained the fuel and removed the sender again - this time keeping it upright hoping what was wrong inside it might not change. When I popped the little cap out, the float was up and the unit was still full of fuel - an obvious problem.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">The reason that's an obvious problem is because there's a hole in the side. Well, there's meant to be. Looking at the "hole" in the side a bit harder I realised that the drill hadn't been leant on hard enough. </span></div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgcbVc0dpSL6zuCP4pZXr8oS-cqkCYxIxln6HrECopq0CyBYSfLxWElo-QVcXAcZNXoqvhheyoV9dIXJMndr-1MJaZMg4rzoRM1RvDGwBMPXFzK3-YKWjMHwBxjfM7dbSyyWsadsI7lA3ZE/s1600/200627+%25287%2529s.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1008" data-original-width="756" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgcbVc0dpSL6zuCP4pZXr8oS-cqkCYxIxln6HrECopq0CyBYSfLxWElo-QVcXAcZNXoqvhheyoV9dIXJMndr-1MJaZMg4rzoRM1RvDGwBMPXFzK3-YKWjMHwBxjfM7dbSyyWsadsI7lA3ZE/s640/200627+%25287%2529s.jpg" width="480" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Leaning on a 2mm drill a bit harder, I got this:</span></div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhgPBteGfqC44eIy6gVL7z9qFS9D8UqArGJwqM0kqLCx1G6G2N1q6ObG1I69ZNcquPj2wNaL7U0kDxofzADKw1eIm7YDqX5qN_-_irw9qCziloOgi7g-dGUoy78finTVD_Asy4hyVq84bRk/s1600/200627+%252813%2529s.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1008" data-original-width="756" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhgPBteGfqC44eIy6gVL7z9qFS9D8UqArGJwqM0kqLCx1G6G2N1q6ObG1I69ZNcquPj2wNaL7U0kDxofzADKw1eIm7YDqX5qN_-_irw9qCziloOgi7g-dGUoy78finTVD_Asy4hyVq84bRk/s640/200627+%252813%2529s.jpg" width="480" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">With that, I reassembled and refitted again with supreme confidence, confidence rewarded with a fuel light going off then coming back on with variations in fuel level. Woohoo! Fixed.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Of course, I then re-entered the living hell of getting the fuel cap carrier rubber surround ring back in place. When I reassembled the tank a couple of weeks ago I finally managed to stretch the rubber enough to get it to stay in place long enough to jam it into the top of the tank. This time, I gave up and borrowed a pair of hands. I haven't done that for at least 11 years.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">All I have to wait for now is my molested float to fail.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">.</span>Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com5tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-42398195895945043702019-07-05T03:51:00.003-07:002019-07-05T03:51:30.705-07:00Ducati 2V valve clearance, timing belt and cam timing videos.<div>
<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Mike Wallis, who does my website, also does video production and runs a Youtube channel called <a href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUbEH2Q1TRglJzN4pj0vcVw">Mike's Machines</a>, so he came in one Saturday and we shot some footage of me banging on while doing a 2V valve clearance adjustment. Videos here:</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Timing belt removal </span> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MidwjP32qhE&t=12s">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MidwjP32qhE&t=12s</a></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Camshaft swap</span> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n63nss8koVw&t=8s">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n63nss8koVw&t=8s</a></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Adjusting valve clearances</span> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AzC-WS3sbg&t=4s">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AzC-WS3sbg&t=4s</a></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Refitting timing belts </span> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwuFs38XV6E&t=19s">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwuFs38XV6E&t=19s</a></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Adjusting cam timing</span> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3xbrJlrfmo&t=11s">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3xbrJlrfmo&t=11s</a></div>
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Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-17772732437284410182019-01-02T05:00:00.002-08:002019-01-02T05:00:46.916-08:00A comparison of 2V and 4V Ducati 750 engines<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">When I did my 2V cam profile measuring (<a href="https://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2017/10/ducati-2v-cam-profile-comparisons.html">here</a>), I had the chance to test a theory that I had, being that the cam profiles for the </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">4V Strada </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">cams - marked A1 - were simply the 2V profiles of the time - the F1 cam that became the R grind used in the 600 and 750 engines from 86 to 02. Turns out I was probably half right.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The inlet profile looks mostly the same. The exhaust has a fatter nose for want of a better description, and is more asymmetrical, biased to the retarded side. I found it a bit odd that they would just use the 2V profile, but while in reality the 2V cam </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">was lacking quite a bit of lift</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"> when used with the 41mm inlet valve in the 750 F1, its 9.5mm of lift was more than enough for a 32mm inlet valve (as the 748cc 4V initially had). Lift required is based on the fact that a poppet valve flow area - if you like the curtain you get around the valve od when lifted - is equal to the valve head area when the lift is 1/4 of the valve head diameter. So if you have 32mm valve you need 8mm lift. And 41mm needs 10.25mm lift. It's a rough guide sort of thing. By the time they got to the production 748, the inlet valves had grown to 33mm and exhausts to 29mm.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><i>(Thinking back to the above now, after having written much of what follows, I've come to the conclusion that this comparison is flawed from the start. The 750F1 cam simply doesn't have enough lift for its valves. Maybe someone on the 4V project at Ducati (Bordi and his team) saw the profile and thought "That's about right for a 32mm valve, I'll have that". Fair play to them.)</i></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><i>(And another - the 85 750F1 has small 500 Pantah valve sizes, so maybe for them the valve lift was ok.)</i></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">To the profile comparison. Blue and red are A1 inlet and exhaust, green and orange the R inlet and exhaust.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhJKsuuc3E5Qskwoj2Ebuh9NbrXVWVDhvZoeeT5JiNeNDzkdJQWgXj3x1QWOhrj-zMqiOaDuY8bqE_6Jz2578E3S_kqMwBoVqyjHPSF-FaifXDHc_uSsfkP7V3FQTVihFAy_DTGXr7Qggd8/s1600/CAMS+R+V+A1.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="641" data-original-width="980" height="418" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhJKsuuc3E5Qskwoj2Ebuh9NbrXVWVDhvZoeeT5JiNeNDzkdJQWgXj3x1QWOhrj-zMqiOaDuY8bqE_6Jz2578E3S_kqMwBoVqyjHPSF-FaifXDHc_uSsfkP7V3FQTVihFAy_DTGXr7Qggd8/s640/CAMS+R+V+A1.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I then wondered if they'd used the P grind from the hot F1 series - Montjuich, Laguna Seca and Santamonica - for the A cam used in the 851 Tricolore Kit and SP series. But clearly not, the P has much more lift and more duration.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Some time later it occured to me that this meant there were a couple of engines from the same manufacturer with the same bore and stroke using the same inlet cam profile and a similar exhaust cam profile in both 2V and 4V configurations. Those two engines are the 750 2V and 748 4V, both with bore and stroke of 88 x 61.5mm.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">As such, I thought a comparison of 2V and 4V was in order.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">In basic engine design, the potential peak torque value is based predominantly on capacity. There is a measure called Brake Mean Effective Pressure, which is basically torque per cc, and it's somewhat consistant with similar engine designs and a measure of efficiency, both volumetric (how much air the engine can suck in and then trap) and combustion (compression ratio, chamber design). The actual outright potential efficiency in terms of energy in versus power out is related to the compression ratio, although measures to reduce losses are a big part of engine design these days.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">In contrast, the potential peak power value is not capacity based, but air flow based. Simply, how much air can the engine flow through itself. This also overlaps with mechanical design and maximum rpm potential. If you're designing an engine for racing, for instance, you'd start by defining the maximum rpm you're going to use, which is mostly bound by piston speed. Maximum piston speed is </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">not an enforced limit, but a number that is in reality a development boundary to be pushed and see what happens. The old "to finish first, one must first finish" kind of thing. Usually defined as "mean piston speed", which is the average speed over the journey from top to bottom. The actual maximum piston speed, which occurs about mid stroke, also varies with connecting rod length. Seems that 30m/s is about the current maximum "mean" used.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">With the limits of capacity and maximum piston speed set, the stroke is defined and then the bore defined by that. Or, in MotoGP for instance, where the capacity limit is 1000cc and bore limit 81mm, those limits give a minimum stroke of 48.5mm, which in turn, if the maximum rpm used is 17,000, gives a minimum mean piston speed of 27.5m/s.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">This can also depend on physical properties of components used too, and the limit there, if not specified by rules, is generally cost. The old "how fast do you want to spend". As a guide, when Ducati were at the end of the 999 race life, they were revving them to 14,500rpm to try to be competitive. With a 63.5mm stroke, that gives a mean piston speed of 30.7m/s. Pistons and connecting rods were not limited by the rules, though, unlike the 1198 era when production parts had to be used. Through material spec and cost, this effectively limits the maximum mean piston speed indirectly. This, along with the physical limit of further enlargement of bore size on the Pantah derived 1198 crankcases, is what led to the Panigale engine development. Bigger bore means shorter stroke, and the shorter stroke was what they needed at the time.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The main secondary variation in terms of possible peak torque production is that the 4V engine has more compression, which realistically is 1/ simply a by product of the required (and better) pent roof combustion chamber design, and 2/ also permitted by that same chamber design with its ability to better resist detonation - ie, a smaller, shallower chamber with valves at a much smaller included angle, large squish areas and a central spark plug. It is also water cooled, again making it a better high performance engine. So the generic 4V pent roof head configuration has combustion chamber design advantages you can't get in a 2V without restricting valve size markedly. The 2V chamber in the 750 engine is a (largely) hemispherical type chamber, which tends to give a deep chamber with much more valve angle than the 4V design simply to get the required valves in. If you want high compression, you use a piston with a dome that in itself causes issues with flame front travel and increases the potential for detonation.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">In so many ways the shallower 4V chamber and flat top piston are just better.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">748 chamber on the left, 750 on the right. 748 valve sizes are 33/29mm inlet/exhaust, the 750 is one of my bigger valve heads with 42.5/37mm. Std 750 is 41/35mm.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiS3VrQw5osizfJ56-SmVHH3OdFrKvUFfgNecJ80epN7l6qurO85iGIvVWx0EMD1ESn-2OF866TK_-z726Kdhw3ZT_9SXQ1waJlv3FRx-s7mUQFFmYghncAnCTE14ggtZwFbS7UG5STJKfg/s1600/748v750+chamber.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="688" data-original-width="1234" height="356" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiS3VrQw5osizfJ56-SmVHH3OdFrKvUFfgNecJ80epN7l6qurO85iGIvVWx0EMD1ESn-2OF866TK_-z726Kdhw3ZT_9SXQ1waJlv3FRx-s7mUQFFmYghncAnCTE14ggtZwFbS7UG5STJKfg/s640/748v750+chamber.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Comparing power and torque outputs was the aim of this, so we'll get into it. Blue is 748, red 750SS and green 750SSie.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgy-LO8w1oBm8w7IJLjmO6ZHit671YQKRqryzVpkrEEs_KP4XxuLfDd_UlL6tjRSZA-Yeh73QXS0v54hi21jDKuy5Ps9IE9KWKoWiOWTU_fO3_gSSxiRYFbg8LuTbh8epMejpkA00n4Jcii/s1600/748750+1.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="511" data-original-width="1112" height="294" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgy-LO8w1oBm8w7IJLjmO6ZHit671YQKRqryzVpkrEEs_KP4XxuLfDd_UlL6tjRSZA-Yeh73QXS0v54hi21jDKuy5Ps9IE9KWKoWiOWTU_fO3_gSSxiRYFbg8LuTbh8epMejpkA00n4Jcii/s640/748750+1.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">The power graph shows the 748 peak power value around 50% more than the 750, at an rpm similarly 50% higher. This makes sense, as power is defined as torque x rpm. Same torque at 50% higher rpm will give 50% more power. If you compare the valve sizes, the 748 has about 30% more valve area.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg9o2Uo1yx4ERmYWGAVUtM2Us86VVVjGvcosvqtnGeFor5eQP_g5JH_ZuxR58uEAVbFNVELzXGqRegifbaevT9HYJqLRmZIv6udoAMOQdYOHtA3UoCESCnJyPXD3GnNHf-nEcoaZLMi6WHa/s1600/748750+2.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="511" data-original-width="1112" height="294" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg9o2Uo1yx4ERmYWGAVUtM2Us86VVVjGvcosvqtnGeFor5eQP_g5JH_ZuxR58uEAVbFNVELzXGqRegifbaevT9HYJqLRmZIv6udoAMOQdYOHtA3UoCESCnJyPXD3GnNHf-nEcoaZLMi6WHa/s640/748750+2.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The torque output, on the other hand, shows some of the implications of trying to spread the rpm range over which the </span><span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;">power</span><span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;"> is produced. The 2V curves are both generally just rounded curves, whereas the 748 has various peaks and troughs. This is usually what happens as you widen the rpm range you're tuning for. At lower rpm, as a general rule, you want things to be longer.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;">The difference between the 750SS and 750SSie is carburettors vs fuel injection. The 750 engine with the Mikuni carbs has long inlet manifolds that position the carbs side by side. The 750 ie engine has much shorter manifolds and throttle bodies arranged at 90 to each other, giving the appearance of a much shorter inlet tract. In reality, the carb model has short rubbers into the airbox, whereas the ie model has much longer rubber trumpets inside the airbox (much longer on the vertical cylinder) that would mean the overall trumpet to port dimension would not be that much different between the two models. Keep in mind everything else engine wise - heads, valves, pistons, cams - are the exact same parts.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;">One thing that is done when you try to extend the power range is to make the inlet shorter. This helps the overall peak power value, but while it also reduces the peak torque value, it will increase the average torque figure over the wider rpm range and introduce the peaks and troughs. The narrower the rpm you tune for, the more specific you can be in your tuning setup - inlet length, etc, and that will lead to a higher peak torque figure. Great for a unique application such as a stationary engine, not so good for general motorcycle use.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;">There is a great dyno graph that I have never been able to find online - the only place I can recall seeing it in Sir Harry Ricardo's book - from D type Jaguar testing that shows the power curve with inlet lengths varying from maybe 6 to 36 inches. At 36" the peak torque is well above that of 6", but the rpm range is much narrower. As an implications and compromises of tuning illustration, it's particularly simple, elegant and quite definitive. I might have to go to a Uni library and photocopy it some day.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;">Another point here is that while the inlet cams in this instance are all spec'd at the same timing - 119 </span><span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;">degrees inlet centreline, with the exhausts at 106 on the 2V and 112 on the 4V, in reality the 2V would be pretty close to that or even maybe 1 or 2 degrees advanced, whereas the 4V would have all cams retarded to some extent. We used to find 4V inlets from 5 to 10 degrees retarded out of the box, and when we reset the timing to 108/108 we did sometimes move inlet cams over 20 degrees. This gives a better shape to the 748 torque curve, as below. Blue is as delivered, red 108/108.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiMc_TsLgOY2KV3EfuUqB5Mrx5LkQeJn7WDvfqNiD0vUsX7FnBQ-vM7_Q8F382CAWv1Nn3hyphenhyphenmnpangJJAL0oCv91kQM94n6IDtgGZwAltr4n4XCWBbNOAAbsMtoCmQJ8FkGD1Ev3TIJbIHj/s1600/748750+3.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="511" data-original-width="1112" height="294" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiMc_TsLgOY2KV3EfuUqB5Mrx5LkQeJn7WDvfqNiD0vUsX7FnBQ-vM7_Q8F382CAWv1Nn3hyphenhyphenmnpangJJAL0oCv91kQM94n6IDtgGZwAltr4n4XCWBbNOAAbsMtoCmQJ8FkGD1Ev3TIJbIHj/s640/748750+3.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
<span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Incidentally, when this cam first appeared in the 750F1, the timing was 10 degrees more advanced than in the 750 Paso, which makes much more sense to me. I have read that the timing was changed for "emissions" reasons, which really makes no sense to me as there was no motorcycle emissions testing back then. I'd speculate it was done for two reasons.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">1/ The Paso, with the longer inlet manifolds and Weber carb, had a more midrange orientated power delivery, and retarding the cam timing gave a power delivery more in keeping with what was expected and helped increase the outright power figure.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">2/ With the fully enclosed body of the Paso and a compression ratio much the same as the F1 (spec is 10:1 in the Paso manual), even with the oil cooling system I'd think the risk of detonation would have been higher so retarding the cam timing would reduce the midrange cylinder pressure.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">By the time the 750SS appeared it had pistons which are the slightest bulge off flat, and the listed compression ratio of 9:1 meant that there was no detonation in sight. The other difference with the later pistons was that the inlet valve reflief was shallower, so the most advanced I was game to run those cams was 114 degree inlet centreline. Not sure if you could run 110 on a 750 Paso or not.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Comparing a 750SS with timing at 119 and 114 we get the following. If we could have run 110 and picked up a little more at the 5500 rpm torque peak and lost a little more over 8000 rpm it would definitely impact the feel of the power delivery, and that may have been a bad thing when you only have 2V motors on offer and people who just love pointlessly revving the snot out of things.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgsfO1iM7_iWSpLhlRBiA9fl38Tipk9_jL9o67SyA3bf7fO_K-QL3gwsYpZHo_4U3COGVppACG8oN-VGMcnz1B0VT9Kb7kOfJRCsmm-bhtsEj1Sgy01tCaROXE60ZDdDKORcGUvMYU02Z96/s1600/748750+4.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="511" data-original-width="1112" height="294" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgsfO1iM7_iWSpLhlRBiA9fl38Tipk9_jL9o67SyA3bf7fO_K-QL3gwsYpZHo_4U3COGVppACG8oN-VGMcnz1B0VT9Kb7kOfJRCsmm-bhtsEj1Sgy01tCaROXE60ZDdDKORcGUvMYU02Z96/s640/748750+4.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Inevitably, the two previous graphs lead to this one, being 748 vs 750 with more consistant cam timing settings.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhEOU2li5yPmr4f22cy0howG_qX0dVvDAw6_IiUatYLiGTSumiW9Wpjh_kjOfe1ecdtx51-PlNX8Z9p3lg_v-WAS73F7EGXt_Us7niW6dyaQK1B0fgZt0YOcOoDU9JRAeY4JEpSYh0VSBxT/s1600/748750+5.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="511" data-original-width="1112" height="294" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhEOU2li5yPmr4f22cy0howG_qX0dVvDAw6_IiUatYLiGTSumiW9Wpjh_kjOfe1ecdtx51-PlNX8Z9p3lg_v-WAS73F7EGXt_Us7niW6dyaQK1B0fgZt0YOcOoDU9JRAeY4JEpSYh0VSBxT/s640/748750+5.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Peak torque is almost the same, peak power about the same difference as before.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjkq9zw2c2AityG1n_3rPCwuLisluAocO6MfXMTYVDmjtKmX2di4gSf5z0gBvepj5XiegI8XCZeFZ4RlVw-GwEQq-2a36MjMRmuc5QYHInUmHSpC8ZyLmR6j9odUYRdXYsRYamPlWL72kY-/s1600/748750+6.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="511" data-original-width="1112" height="294" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjkq9zw2c2AityG1n_3rPCwuLisluAocO6MfXMTYVDmjtKmX2di4gSf5z0gBvepj5XiegI8XCZeFZ4RlVw-GwEQq-2a36MjMRmuc5QYHInUmHSpC8ZyLmR6j9odUYRdXYsRYamPlWL72kY-/s640/748750+6.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
<span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><b>Yeah, but.....</b></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Frankly, there's more yebits to this story than story. It was sort of a good idea that has, realistically, taken it in the neck quite a few times along the way.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;">One could argue that we could make the 750 engine a better one for this comparison by giving it a different cam with more appropriate lift. Totally negating the comparison, of course. And its under valved, so lets fix that too. And the comp is too low compared to the 748. Luckily, I prepared one earlier. My 750 engine with 900 cams, 42.5/37 valves and Ferracci 12:1 pistons. The 900 cams have 12 degrees more duration and 2.5mm more lift.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgvvhe1KsZ6J8NSgJ44kmZXHn1dpCfXknQi9LOVvv7WypmKYCJz5rTw_idAkg45bWAe17PWrMlv-QoMplwFgtsgLHSRRNiHlAezHPhfZYzJwgESNimnYyIZ37HSbLJL_N86nFSYjWLZCNQ6/s1600/748750+7.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="511" data-original-width="1112" height="294" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgvvhe1KsZ6J8NSgJ44kmZXHn1dpCfXknQi9LOVvv7WypmKYCJz5rTw_idAkg45bWAe17PWrMlv-QoMplwFgtsgLHSRRNiHlAezHPhfZYzJwgESNimnYyIZ37HSbLJL_N86nFSYjWLZCNQ6/s640/748750+7.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;">Even though the cam duration has gone up, the torque curve is still a single peak, typical of the 2V motors. </span><br />
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<span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;">But, if we're going to make the 750 a bit better, we can make the 748 better too. Along the way they had a couple of goes at the 748. The SP/SPS with its great big old school cams, and the R with the bigger throttles and valves and half big cams. Neither made a better road bike - it always dismayed me when people who bought 748R came in and claimed their old 748 had more midrange. Of course it did. The concept of an homologation special is not understood by many.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;">748 in blue, 748SPS in green, 748R in red. Different shape curves, or more importantly, different amounts of torque over 10,000rpm. Where the power is. But, the peak torque value is pretty consistant across the 3, as it has been for all the graphs so far.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgGEqDooOlNn2EFsIAngvOL-k4zZau-2nf53b-OjOCamfjYW1tnedvaQopKiBMflVKdofTIK1R6uHcC6nvrw76ZvjLfLlayi7V3AkP-8fw5VtyexVTozv7KWGF57LAeCEQpiDvSGtRJNuEZ/s1600/748750+8.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="511" data-original-width="1112" height="294" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgGEqDooOlNn2EFsIAngvOL-k4zZau-2nf53b-OjOCamfjYW1tnedvaQopKiBMflVKdofTIK1R6uHcC6nvrw76ZvjLfLlayi7V3AkP-8fw5VtyexVTozv7KWGF57LAeCEQpiDvSGtRJNuEZ/s640/748750+8.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;">But (I'm liking these buts), if we're going to improve the 750, we might as well improve the 748 too. P</span><span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;">roperly.</span><span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;"> </span><span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;">That involves bigger valves again - 37/30.5, larger than the 748/748SP at 33/29 or the 748R's 36/30, but reduced cam duration - at least 20 degrees on the inlet and 16 on the exhaust with appropriate lift. Let's call it a 749.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;">The totally different exhaust designs may influence the 749 output, but in comparison to the above 748's adding a base model 749 curve in burgundy shows how much better it is. Again, 750cc so similar peak torque, but the shorter cam duration and bigger valves combine to give better low rpm and high rpm torque compared to the 748. The valve of good heads and just enough cam. Although, on the road, it's kind of a boring power delivery. Having the torque rise more noticeably with the rpm does make them feel more racy.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEioL19XRyeHyv1x5_mMHIDhlH78Q1TJ2voj7qthF6ks07WRmc3nURkutZrmD3P7Uzs-Gm_0-sVUqRIdRwHdorDOcEnx1uGz3-zdRJtqLvuQdC-i90s1Rp4aE2HqgFjVzBmEPyLi0sBLl387/s1600/748750+9.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="511" data-original-width="1112" height="294" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEioL19XRyeHyv1x5_mMHIDhlH78Q1TJ2voj7qthF6ks07WRmc3nURkutZrmD3P7Uzs-Gm_0-sVUqRIdRwHdorDOcEnx1uGz3-zdRJtqLvuQdC-i90s1Rp4aE2HqgFjVzBmEPyLi0sBLl387/s640/748750+9.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;">Power curves show the 749 is much more linear. I think it'd make a good naked bike motor.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh2gI0WxpKxBDc2anjNvcoImiYOtSZ9HT9z62r63gYFVS-eWyJHwwmf2fmWiKgCEEazo0Aa222kIuqDdiC7vt_wBv6AEwVTI-LsmHfdod5jrY756kOPo5i42tu0AfjevQbgzMc584KX6iwA/s1600/74875010.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="511" data-original-width="1112" height="294" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh2gI0WxpKxBDc2anjNvcoImiYOtSZ9HT9z62r63gYFVS-eWyJHwwmf2fmWiKgCEEazo0Aa222kIuqDdiC7vt_wBv6AEwVTI-LsmHfdod5jrY756kOPo5i42tu0AfjevQbgzMc584KX6iwA/s640/74875010.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;">I might stop there. I've kind of lost the direction of this, which really is just me thinking about it too much.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;"><br /></span>Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com5tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-85139586802992871172018-12-28T04:26:00.001-08:002018-12-28T04:27:23.652-08:00Closing rocker spring change on the 851.<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">One thing about the 851 that has annoyed me for many years is the way it idles - best described as crap. As a 1989 model it has the early soft closing springs - the springs used to (try to) keep the valves closed as per #5 the picture below. They're not valve springs in the typical sense, just a helper.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEikNHCSRQvSavXJwv2q7-SLe2bqwuooYHW5XV2Pb_KFNMqNwzUlx5EY1lTeIFOAEyLrj4nEyv846FGRi4MUphjw5fhv9wFcnc-sfgAbu2G5s4vcWltRh9REkDQ7zT4ArntSoNcTjqao9Tjg/s1600/4v+closing+spring.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="452" data-original-width="553" height="522" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEikNHCSRQvSavXJwv2q7-SLe2bqwuooYHW5XV2Pb_KFNMqNwzUlx5EY1lTeIFOAEyLrj4nEyv846FGRi4MUphjw5fhv9wFcnc-sfgAbu2G5s4vcWltRh9REkDQ7zT4ArntSoNcTjqao9Tjg/s640/4v+closing+spring.png" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">If you run the engine without them, they tend not to idle very well. Once the revs are up it's not an issue, but at idle too much cylinder pressure leaks past the valve seats. In use that translates to a lot of misfiring and oxygen and hydrocarbons in the exhaust mixture, which makes it unpleasant to be behind. Even with the soft "Corsa" springs as this bike had they're not a lot better.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I had hoped that adjusting the valve clearances would fix the issue. When </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I first purchased the bike I had given it a big service, adjusting the valve clearances and replacing the original stainless steel collets with steel ones. The new collets tend to settle (wear) into the shims and valves,</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"> so you always need to adjust again once that has happened. Over </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">the 6,000km I had ridden it in the 3 or so years I had it on the road it had become slowly worse, and parking it for 13 years was the most simple solution.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">During the "back on the road" service recently I had found a lot of clearance - most around the 0.20mm range - and 3 pairs of broken collets. Once adjusted though, it wasn't a lot better, still having a fairly ropey idle with a dirty mixture - lots of O2 and HC to really get up your nose. And that was probably the thing that was annoying me the most now - being embarrassed at how horrible it would have been to be around the bike while sitting idling at traffic lights, etc.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I recall servicing an early 851 years ago at Moto One, pulling the closing clearances down nice and tight and it was nice and clean at idle, so was hoping for a similar result again. Not to be, unfortunately. To give you an idea, this is what a dirty mixture looks like on the gas analyser. 5000ppm HC and 5% O2 makes for runny eyes.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjxaCTN8Z2iVIrLRvqBe-T4gX-fgWpNZExq5oARnUrKfn1vPG8ERsRD7q_CeHsBVjzyzBMTobQzdm5MFb8z1YV5oYgDAA-7zKNJ2iiHxTvKZNSqwP4BqiCWcupBNMU2SwOtfmrw2b4cdLf1/s1600/013s.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="690" data-original-width="769" height="572" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjxaCTN8Z2iVIrLRvqBe-T4gX-fgWpNZExq5oARnUrKfn1vPG8ERsRD7q_CeHsBVjzyzBMTobQzdm5MFb8z1YV5oYgDAA-7zKNJ2iiHxTvKZNSqwP4BqiCWcupBNMU2SwOtfmrw2b4cdLf1/s640/013s.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I had come to the conclusion the fix was the heavier closing springs fitted from 1991 models onwards. Confirmation of this came from the early ST3, which had a recall involving replacing the exhaust rocker closing spring with a much heavier part. The very soft inlet springs stayed as they were, and it took them from having a mixture like the above to the expected clean.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">All the later model 4V Strada cam bikes tend to idle very nicely, and I could see no reason why my 851 should be any worse. It had good leakdown and cranking compression, both of which would indicate satisfactory general health. And there wasn't a great deal of wobble in the valve guides.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Ideally, I would have pulled the cylinders and heads and fitted the new pair of cylinders and pistons I have, along with 748 heads modified as per the 853 kit procedure and fitted with the heavy springs. Would have been an absolute treat. But, I'm not really interested in that sort of thing these days - really, I just want a bike to be able to ride, and the 851 was the only complete, club reg eligible bike I had available at the time. The time investment required is more than I have available to spend.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The only other option was to swap the closing springs with the heads in place. I wasn't looking forward to it. There's a French fellow named Patrick who did his years ago and has been encouraging me to do the same via the 851 forum, but I was still reluctant. Until the last time I rode it and decided I'd had enough.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">So I dug the set of springs I've had for 15 or so years out of the tub and put the bike on the bench. Everything externally removable has to come out of the heads, as below. That's the easy bit.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjiiFJcv9jmnzEfXun0jQWxtfuAwcu2QlApl5_S7BYrqFBZXpsDw9w_cFJkBDUXLBoyS8qubgrhUSuIzQL71SSmpfX-dXPK_vCdxduo0d7s3EmPvIbjVJaZ5P9LQU2CK9HjxVocDdPJcjqT/s1600/003s.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="893" data-original-width="845" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjiiFJcv9jmnzEfXun0jQWxtfuAwcu2QlApl5_S7BYrqFBZXpsDw9w_cFJkBDUXLBoyS8qubgrhUSuIzQL71SSmpfX-dXPK_vCdxduo0d7s3EmPvIbjVJaZ5P9LQU2CK9HjxVocDdPJcjqT/s640/003s.jpg" width="604" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">You can see the difference in the springs clearly in a side by side photo. The original are 2.0mm wire diameter with 7 coils. The replacements are 2.7mm wire diameter with 5 coils. Using the spring rate calculator I usually use for fork springs (I think it'd work for rotating coils) and guessing the coil diameter at 15mm give rates of 1.0 and 5.5 kg/mm. Not sure that I believe that, but the spring rate is proportional to the wire diameter to the power of 4 and inversely to the number of coils. Thicker wire and less coils both give a higher rate. In terms of how hard it is to push the rocker down, there's a significant difference. Let's go with that.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh9OZ5ZmpdH9nC7qDDub7c19urXZIPvElZxlyGtIkN4C7BMXvbZWA3rAqp0q7kjInVbcMbxdpKEpI90yBVNepQF8evf5iOgE517IdYgdFjyz3hpgwymghMH8ux4SgfG-0YyxribTWHSGTFQ/s1600/007s.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="863" data-original-width="763" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh9OZ5ZmpdH9nC7qDDub7c19urXZIPvElZxlyGtIkN4C7BMXvbZWA3rAqp0q7kjInVbcMbxdpKEpI90yBVNepQF8evf5iOgE517IdYgdFjyz3hpgwymghMH8ux4SgfG-0YyxribTWHSGTFQ/s640/007s.jpg" width="564" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The worst part of the replacement procedure, as it turns out, was getting the springs and rockers back into place and the pins in. The closing rockers and pins are at the very outer corners of the above photo, and getting in there with limited access - vertical exhaust and both sides of the horizontal with the radiator still in place (frankly, I've had the f#*%ing radiator out of this thing so many times in the last few months that it was not coming out again. Funny the jobs you absolutely hate) and with everything coated in Motul 300V it was as slippery as the proverbial two eels in a bucket of snot. I resorted to zip tying the springs in and then poking the rockers in. There was a fair amount of cussing - you work blue with this kind of job.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgd_tNIuHynvCB0EvqUpRP-Yy9B3XeQFmWMDCRmgKGaLSr91RAzQxV1GkHjx5hS6lBU2vT9-s0YBAGDyZMw4VlzETu9iTkF0UbJWRbaCwlkj6HokG7PVEUxxCKdsdUVZh3C7fPo3_d7Rmgy/s1600/008s.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1210" data-original-width="908" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgd_tNIuHynvCB0EvqUpRP-Yy9B3XeQFmWMDCRmgKGaLSr91RAzQxV1GkHjx5hS6lBU2vT9-s0YBAGDyZMw4VlzETu9iTkF0UbJWRbaCwlkj6HokG7PVEUxxCKdsdUVZh3C7fPo3_d7Rmgy/s640/008s.jpg" width="480" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I started on the vertical, as I figured the exhausts would be the worst. As a clarification as to why this is a crap job, the tail of the spring has to go under a lug cast into the inside of the head. In the above photo, the lug is between the two closing rocker pins - the tails go under one from each side. The spring tail is behind the zip tie, so you have to pull it down maybe 70 degrees. It's not a fun job, even when the head is on the bench. But my home made tool can work an absolute treat.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Speaking of my home made tool, I used it last week on an ST4S head, the frustration of which reminded me after the fact that I was using it wrong. You'd think I'd remember how to use my own tool. Ideally, this tool works best from the opposite side - you work the exhaust spring tail under the lug from the inlet side. There's no access from the vertical exhaust side, so I popped the inlet spring in first from the inlet side then tried the exhaust. The first one went in so easily it could only give me a false sense of success. Working around the radiator and thermo fan on the horizontal sucked. But, overall, it wasn't as bad as I was fearing.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The tool.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhEcM8_ILR6n0IeWAgLHvvEON7aCrZFMO9bHJwhOTyl1ziDad7irRwnE-nm28iM4_EW3IYXbV0Tj4xkVa2tmIQ-bH1agpyKE5ORgPx4iBwVpslu79GkKQ7W9h7rc0Pcx3yOUvoIXaPa33-F/s1600/012s.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="908" data-original-width="1210" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhEcM8_ILR6n0IeWAgLHvvEON7aCrZFMO9bHJwhOTyl1ziDad7irRwnE-nm28iM4_EW3IYXbV0Tj4xkVa2tmIQ-bH1agpyKE5ORgPx4iBwVpslu79GkKQ7W9h7rc0Pcx3yOUvoIXaPa33-F/s640/012s.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Then it was just a case of putting everything back in, and then everything back on (replaced what looked like a leaky timing shaft seal too) and it was time to fire it up and see what happened. It was a satisfying pile of debris once done.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">When I had the plugs out I noticed the vertical was whiter than the horizontal, so I adjusted the throttle linkage rose joints out of alignment to close the vertical throttle blade a little. I couldn't be bothered doing it properly, it's such a pain access wise with it assembled to a run-able state. As I hoped, it was idling higher. At least that was reassuring, the valves were holding compression better. I didn't replace the eprom first as I had planned, and to my surprise it was a lot leaner than it had been previously. I guess the holding compression relates directly to trapping more air. I wound the idle trimmer on the ecu a couple of turns counter clockwise to richen the mixture, and we went from around 1% CO to 4% CO. It wasn't a lot cleaner mixture wise than it had been previously - it's in the 2500 - 3000ppm HC and 2.5 - 3.5% O2 range around 4% CO, but it idled so much lower and smoother that it was clearly better.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">For an eprom I compared the 009B based eprom I was running with the 035 eprom from the 1992 851. The 89 - 91 bikes all used the 009/009B - the B refers to a software change that Duane told me related to how the engine was "turned off", which was done to improve the life of the starter clutches. It was done well before my time, and I've never found a service bulletin relating to it.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The 1991 model used the heavy closing springs with the 009B eprom, but I don't recall how they ran. Don't know if I've ever ridden a 91 now that I think about it.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Comparing the 009B to the 035 gives the % differences as below. Negative numbers mean 035 is leaner. Blue along the bottom is RPM, red up the side is throttle opening in degrees. P7 ecu starts at 0 degrees, which is the lowest TPS output voltage it sees every time the key is turned on. It's not actual throttle opening, just opening from closed. The implication here is that if you change the closed throttle position on the idle stop you change the fueling at low throttle openings. Can be a frustrating system, as the only way to adjust idle speed is with the idle stops as the P7 throttle bodies have no air bleeds.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiqGUzkXuGPkvMR3NsIfNpQp04_5jtZwDySoxUIhHPsAkQC46Pn7pnDGPG7vKZEc9usoIW6GJEoIBNapokDY3xOogpPXH5iD1N8WqPE_i7uBpuK82n1akSWYI4mRcOldeIv-Fld2lXXT-je/s1600/009b+vs+035.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="294" data-original-width="803" height="234" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiqGUzkXuGPkvMR3NsIfNpQp04_5jtZwDySoxUIhHPsAkQC46Pn7pnDGPG7vKZEc9usoIW6GJEoIBNapokDY3xOogpPXH5iD1N8WqPE_i7uBpuK82n1akSWYI4mRcOldeIv-Fld2lXXT-je/s640/009b+vs+035.png" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The 035 eprom is a lot leaner at low throttle than the 009B, and that is the direction I was heading with the eprom I had been running which was my mapping from when I was using an Ultimap UM011 based eprom dropped over the 009B base software with some changes to the environmental trims. The 009B is also richer on the air temp trims, so in use it will be richer than the above comparison indicates. I leaned those trims off and reduced the range of them in the eprom I'm running now.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Comparing my eprom to the 035 is as below. The temp trims on them are much closer. I made the lower throttle lines the same as the 035 pretty much, and the 035 idle fuel was spot on with the idle trimmer set to the mid point - you remove the top of the ecu and measure the voltage at the trim pot outputs and set them to 2.5V, which is midway between 0 and 5 (oddly enough). I like to start at the mid point if I can.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The larger positive differences at the top up to 7,000 rpm are for the revised cam timing - closing the inlets earlier traps more air and needs more fuel. Although after the torque peak, you need less fuel as the volumetric efficiency is dropping faster. So 8,000 rpm and up it's getting less fuel. I have the rev limiter set to just under 10,000 rpm from memory, so the point at 10,500 is redundant.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The -100 on the bottom line is simply due to me turning the fuel off on overrun. You just make the map value 0.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">After all this I put it back together and went for a ride. It was pretty hot here today - 37 degrees - and that may influence how it ran a touch. Possibly influenced how it started too. When I turned it on the temp gauge moved off the stop even though the engine was "cold". I have made the coolant trims at 5 and 17 degrees coolant temp richer from memory, but once running it doesn't need more enrichment as it warms up through the 29 and 41 degree points. But they do like more fuel for the initial start, and the ecu from 1.6M onwards have a starting enrichment table as well as a coolant trim table, where they have a decaying enrichment that works on rotations since started.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">It almost gave me the impression it was a little off a few times, but the more I rode it the harder it was to find any proof of that. It had a point at 3,500 rpm just off closed throttle that may be too lean, as it shuts down a little there at times, but it's not really an issue. It really is a lot nicer at low throttle openings, which was the point of this.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I was going to check the idle mixture after riding it in case it'd cleaned up a bit more due to valves seating better with a run, but forgot.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">It did cut out a few times as I pulled the clutch in coming to a stop. Usually that's ignition timing based, but this eprom has modifed spark map breaks that allow more advance at 1000 rpm to try to stop that, and a plateau from 1100 to 1500 that gives you good control of the idle speed with the advance at those points being the same as the original eprom value - 6 degrees from memory. But I may put some more advance in - it makes them idle nicer if you can add advance without losing control of the idle speed. That part is annoying as I've never had this bike do that before, and it's another reason to have to remove the seat base to get to the ecu. Usually more than once. I'm so over replacing eproms - flashing ecu is so much easier.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">And I think the clutch might be slipping. I'll see how long I can ignore it for.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-71775272354462640732018-03-04T03:03:00.000-08:002018-03-04T03:03:09.405-08:00Ignitech TCIP4 as a replacement for Marelli Digiplex.<br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br />I alluded to this on Facebook, but figured I should put up a bit more info as there's not a lot out there. It's also a continuation on from this post - <a href="http://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com.au/2017/06/dellorto-carb-tuning-on-moto-guzzi.html">Dellorto carb tuning on a Moto Guzzi Sport 1100, with some gearing and ignition rambling</a> - as one of the theories I had on the poor low speed running was it being related to ignition timing.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Many years ago (back in the Moto One days, so 9+) I had a fellow with a Sport 1100 contact me as he was trying to replace his Digiplex with an Ignitech. The had said it would work, but he failed and gave up from memory. I asked Ignitech the question again last year, and they assured me it would work. Like a lot of things, sometimes the only way to prove (or disprove) a theory is to do it. So I ordered a TCIP4 to suit, which is just a normal TCIP4, not a Ducati / Kokusan specific unit. It is supplied with a generic connector under the expectation of cutting the original out, but I don't like the point of no return if I can avoid it.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">To make sure I wasn't wasting my time I put some terminals on the Ignitech wiring and plugged it in for a test. Hit the button and it fired straight up, which was a great relief. I went for a ride and that was good too, so moved on to the making it right bit.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Before I pulled the Digiplex I did some tests to check the ignition timing as was. </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I had marked the flywheel with some paint marks, using the teeth on the ring gear. I had counted them and got 97, which gives about 3.5 degrees per tooth. I then p</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">ut a degree wheel on the alternator to be a bit more accurate and that gave the idle at 6 degrees and the full advance at 33 degrees BTDC.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">With the Digiplex it appeared with the vacuum hose disconnected (mimicing WOT) to not have a lot of advance under 2,500 rpm, and not a great deal more with the vacuum hose connected. With the Ignitech you can make up the map as you wish, and a linear increase in spark advance generally gives you a nice feel - no holes or bumps, etc. Much like good suspension, good ignition timing is often not noticeable in any way. It just works.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The table below shows what I set the Ignitech map to. The base advance setting of 12 degrees appeared to correspond with full advance set to 35 degrees, and that gives an idle setting of 12 degrees where it does certainly happier than with the Digiplex.</span><br />
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<td class="xl65" height="20" style="height: 15.0pt; width: 48pt;" width="64"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">RPM</span></td>
<td align="right" class="xl65" style="border-left: none; width: 48pt;" width="64"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">1400</span></td>
<td align="right" class="xl65" style="border-left: none; width: 48pt;" width="64"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">2000</span></td>
<td align="right" class="xl65" style="border-left: none; width: 48pt;" width="64"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">3000</span></td>
<td align="right" class="xl65" style="border-left: none; width: 48pt;" width="64"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">4000</span></td>
<td align="right" class="xl65" style="border-left: none; width: 48pt;" width="64"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">5000</span></td>
<td align="right" class="xl65" style="border-left: none; width: 48pt;" width="64"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">6000</span></td>
<td align="right" class="xl65" style="border-left: none; width: 48pt;" width="64"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">7000</span></td>
<td align="right" class="xl65" style="border-left: none; width: 48pt;" width="64"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">8000</span></td>
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<td class="xl65" height="20" style="border-top: none; height: 15.0pt;"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Advance</span></td>
<td align="right" class="xl65" style="border-left: none; border-top: none;"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">12</span></td>
<td align="right" class="xl65" style="border-left: none; border-top: none;"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">18</span></td>
<td align="right" class="xl65" style="border-left: none; border-top: none;"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">28</span></td>
<td align="right" class="xl65" style="border-left: none; border-top: none;"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">33</span></td>
<td align="right" class="xl65" style="border-left: none; border-top: none;"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">35</span></td>
<td align="right" class="xl65" style="border-left: none; border-top: none;"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">35</span></td>
<td align="right" class="xl65" style="border-left: none; border-top: none;"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">36</span></td>
<td align="right" class="xl65" style="border-left: none; border-top: none;"><span style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">36</span></td>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">To connect the Ignitech I didn't want to cut off the original Digiplex connector on the wiring loom, just for retro-ability. I had no idea where to start looking for the correct connector, as I doubt it would exist outside of oem, so made one from a block of plastic. It was actually pretty easy. I measured the terminal spacing and drilled holes as required. The hole from the back (wire side) was large enough to fit the wire through only, with a countersink on the terminal side to hold the terminals in the loom connector while not allowing them to move back out. I drilled </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">then filed a slot into the front edge to allow the original loom connector to slot in. A couple of zip ties seemed like the most appropriate way to keep it all together.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">To mount the TCIP4 I bent up a piece of aluminium sheet and fitted it using the original Digiplex mounting holes and rubber bushes.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgWDRgI4K7ZGWJH3A4lYF3HPf1xn-LCO9CPu0yzcOFRXsPsFXlcnCh3opk__ku7SqTaif30JFf0l7q64YBSC9TKAA2eb-R2Kwy2oNxoCmX9m2mMJyDH50d1hvFbddRg9nOAnHjqoUKyzy_B/s1600/015s.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="857" data-original-width="1143" height="478" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgWDRgI4K7ZGWJH3A4lYF3HPf1xn-LCO9CPu0yzcOFRXsPsFXlcnCh3opk__ku7SqTaif30JFf0l7q64YBSC9TKAA2eb-R2Kwy2oNxoCmX9m2mMJyDH50d1hvFbddRg9nOAnHjqoUKyzy_B/s640/015s.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">And that was done. At this point I gave it back to the owner and he was very happy with the result. While there's still some low speed jerkiness, it's much less than it was. Quite amazing, really, how much difference some more spark advance can make.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Personally I think fitting a rear wheel with a cush drive (realistically a 17" from Sport 1100i and V11) would cure that and shorten the gearing a little </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">as well for </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">a nice side benefit.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">If you wanted to go further, you could fit a MAP sensor as the version 88 of the TCIP4 has the ability to take a MAP sensor input to allow for a 3D ignition map. A 3D map allows you to add ignition timing on part throttle, which makes a difference to response and fuel economy.</span><br />
<br />Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-41978504477960961842017-12-23T02:51:00.000-08:002017-12-23T03:09:57.489-08:00Ducati 43mm non adjustable forks 1999 - 2005 ish - The ones with an awful lot of low speed damping.<br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">There's some 43mm non adjustable forks fitted to the smaller engined Monster and SSie from 1999 to 2005 or so, made by Showa and Marzocchi and someone else who possibly makes them under license from Marzocchi (maybe?) that have quite amazing amounts of low speed damping.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The easiest way to recognise them is to strip them and try to get the oil out of the cartridge. It would appear that the only way for the oil to get out is between the rod and corresponding opening in the top of the cartridge. A few drops at a time. I really don't understand that.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><i>As an aside here, after this style fork they went to an externally visually similar (I'd say probably identical) fork which has rebound damping only on one side and compression (allegedly) on the other. These are the forks in the S2R800, 695 and late 620 and 400 models.</i></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I don't see many of these bikes for fork oil change services, but I did an oil change on a 1999 750SSie a couple of years ago and tried going down to 5 weight oil to reduce the damping. It didn't really seem to make much difference, and that's as far as I got with that bike.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The oil spec for those forks is Showa SS-8, which I found a spec for on the <a href="https://transmoto.com.au/comparative-oil-weights-table/"><span style="color: red;">transmoto.com.au/comparative-oil-weights-table</span></a> of 36.8 cST @ 40 degrees C. That's a tiny bit lighter than Maxima 10 weight (32 cST on the linked table, but 37.4 cST in the Maxima blurb), but generally typical for the available range of 10 weight oils. The Maxima 5 weight is 16.2 cST, which is a big difference that gave little change.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The later non Showa ones are listed as using Shell Advance Fork 7.5 in the 2001 M400/600/750 manual, whose viscosity is 22 cST in the Shell specs.</span><br />
<br />
<span style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Many years ago there was a posting on the Ducati Monster Forum from a fellow from NSW who had Shaun at D Moto have a play with his M800ie forks, which would have been of this style. I rang Shaun to ask him what he had done and he said he'd drilled some holes in the cartridge above and below the piston travel to reduce the low speed damping.</span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">So, recently, when I had a 2003 M400ie come in for some fork seals, I took the oppurtunity to have another go at making them work.</span><br />
<span style="background-color: white;"><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">The photo below shows the marking on the inside of the lower leg. Not sure which company this is. The cap has a 19mm hex.</span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">I </span></span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">removed the cartridges (undo bottom screw) and tried to get the oil out of them, the total unsuccessfullness of which confirmed I had the forks I thought I would. This is what the cartridge looks like (RH end is the bottom)</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj_A74NQLPKdPk1CaVbADOXrgwFP7Q5XOpgRmz4sH0Bf77WEs9zMABZGOGDh14gAoMSHadVnKS0Fqr8FZ2jdoORihU11899W9P6IJZ0VuaCGAZGUjPNm4LKQ9ezNXosMfTKCLT9kKTVILdb/s1600/017sr.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="612" data-original-width="816" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj_A74NQLPKdPk1CaVbADOXrgwFP7Q5XOpgRmz4sH0Bf77WEs9zMABZGOGDh14gAoMSHadVnKS0Fqr8FZ2jdoORihU11899W9P6IJZ0VuaCGAZGUjPNm4LKQ9ezNXosMfTKCLT9kKTVILdb/s640/017sr.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The hole you can see at the RH end is where the oil enters the cartridge to fill it on the unlikely occasion it is empty. This is a non serviceable cartridge, unless you cut it open and then weld it up again.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">I made a guess on where I thought the compression valve at the bottom would end and where the piston would be moving, and drilled a couple of holes to allow the oil to bypass the shim stacks. This is exactly what most adjusters do on adjustable forks - open a hole and allow oil to bypass the technologically superior shim stack via a very technically inferior hole.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">Oil flowing through holes is how damping rod forks (old style) work, and that's why they have no low speed damping and often lots of high speed (depending on the diameter of the hole and what weight oil you run). At some point the hole, which provides no resistance to the oil as it flows through it at low speed, effectively becomes solid as oil is forced through it at increasingly higher speed. The bigger the hole, the higher the speed at which it becomes a restriction.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">The shim stack is very variable and adjustable (if you can get to it) and a much better idea to modify. If it is any good anyway - if not, you often end up bypassing it with an old school hole.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">The holes I drilled were 55mm and 230mm up from the very bottom of the cartridge, as below.</span></span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi8bbhWByrucPLirMSA5o5um_xg3vWtnh5KBzF898BTO3JDLlmDhgOPOcQE7fk-P5pe0Qyo_OHKjipHfpFQvJK9xWkTR5KKasjg-h1g_e21j_HwahDnSruKCkryLG5qqpQNjGIh1fymYO9Q/s1600/014sr.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="612" data-original-width="816" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi8bbhWByrucPLirMSA5o5um_xg3vWtnh5KBzF898BTO3JDLlmDhgOPOcQE7fk-P5pe0Qyo_OHKjipHfpFQvJK9xWkTR5KKasjg-h1g_e21j_HwahDnSruKCkryLG5qqpQNjGIh1fymYO9Q/s640/014sr.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The bottom hole could have been 50mm up I'd think - with the drill bit through the hole you could just feel the end of the piston hitting the bit with the rod fully compressed. It wasn't blocking the hole though.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The holes shown are the initial 1mm holes. I</span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"> used some ti-nitride drill bits and my air drill, which was the only one I had with a chuck small enough to hold the little drills. They drilled through nicely without pressure on the bit pretty much. The last time I tried drilling holes in some cartridges I broke a couple of drills and it all got a bit messy. This time no worries at all.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br style="background-color: white;" /><span style="background-color: white;">A point to make at this time - after drilling the holes, it's a very wise idea to not move the rod at all if possible. That oil inside the cartridge, previously impossible to remove, is now very keen to spray out all over you or whatever else the hole is pointed at. Old fork oil is not a nice liquid to coat one's self with. You'd almost go as far to say that wearing a hundred ml or so of fork oil is justification enough to throw clothing in the bin.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">Once the 1mm holes were drilled I refitted the cartridge, filled the leg with Maxima 7 weight oil (26.7 cST), bled it up and had a assessment of the result. The low speed rebound was much reduced, and felt somewhat normal-ish. The reduction in low speed compression wasn't anywhere near what I was hoping for, so I went to 1.5mm and then 2mm to reduce it further. With the 2mm hole the compression felt on what I would call the high-ish side of normal, but much, much less than originally. Normal is also a relative term - often the Ducati forks seem to have almost no compression damping at all. The later comp only fork leg has a hole larger than 2mm about 100mm up the cartridge from memory, and no compression damping until the piston has moved down past the hole (the last third or so of travel). </span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">A couple of points:</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">1/ The manual calls for 7.5 weight oil, which will have been chosen for some reason. I used Maxima 7 weight because I wasn't sure what the impact would otherwise be on the high speed damping. All the hole drilling is concerned with is the low speed. The high speed will be set by the oil weight.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">2/ I'm no suspension expert, nor do I have the skill required to make an assessment of high speed damping and requirements thereof. So the decision regarding oil weight was more to reduce the number of changes being made, and assuming there was validity in the 7.5 weight spec. It may turn out that there is too much or too little high speed damping and that a different oil weight would be more desirable. Or it may have a mismatch and ideally require different weights for each direction, which is impossible to achieve.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">3/ This bike is an M400ie commuter, so it's a pretty soft target in terms of making a big improvement without causing problems. The crappier things are to start with, the harder it is to make them worse. Well, usually.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">In terms of the hole size chosen, it was a guess (I actually think it was the conversation with Shaun, and someone else from somewhere) and trial and error. You could also vary the number of holes. A 2mm hole is 4 times the area of a 1mm hole, so you could also try 2 of 1.5mm or 4 of 1mm holes which would effect the low speed similarly, but reduce the impact on the mid and high speed damping. The 1mm hole will effectively go solid much earlier than a 2mm hole. As well as being 1/4 the size, the circumference, and hence boundary layer effect on flow, is proportionally higher. Four of the 1mm holes should </span>work much the same at very low speed, but will give more mid speed damping than 2 of 1.5mm holes, which in turn would give more mid speed damping than a single 2mm hole.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Someone who specialises in suspension mods would have a much better idea of hole sizing.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">At this point I had a 1mm bleed hole for the rebound damping and a 2mm bleed hole for the compression damping with 7 weight Maxima Racing Fork Fluid set to 135mm. The oil height specified in the manual is 80mm, which I know from my previous oil height experiments gives a very aggressive air spring effect. As I was also going to make a spring rate change, I likewise made an oil level change.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The owner of the bike weighed around 75kg, so I didn't want to go too hard with the springs. If it was mine, I'd be going at least 0.90kg/mm. I tend to cut down the original springs if I can, and use a spring rate formula to work out how much I need to cut.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The spring rate calc is (G x d x d x d x d) / (8 x N x D x D x D)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">where G is Young's Modulus (material property, 76.9GPa)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"> d is the wire diameter</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"> N is the number of working coils</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"> D is the spring mean diameter</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The original spring is 292mm long, 4.8mm wire diameter, 38.6mm outside diameter and has 22 working coils. It is a typical Ducati dual rate spring, where it has a tighter wound section with constant coil spacing over each section. See the top spring in the photo below. The spring rate given by the formula is 0.606kg/mm for the total spring in its initial travel. Too soft.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEir9yGAFaav-5-4Wd5z8jydNW2lbGKg3B4SzSgizBmdGuQGJ0aaxZUslY5M49kLPCbuX1cY6MeTFdDmWdju90ahbIpC6umf-jPUicRMpN1ouMfBDxCUzt42dP2avcldrPp3EdwcQjWKK36g/s1600/019s.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="612" data-original-width="816" height="480" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEir9yGAFaav-5-4Wd5z8jydNW2lbGKg3B4SzSgizBmdGuQGJ0aaxZUslY5M49kLPCbuX1cY6MeTFdDmWdju90ahbIpC6umf-jPUicRMpN1ouMfBDxCUzt42dP2avcldrPp3EdwcQjWKK36g/s640/019s.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Often, with the Ducati springs, the secondary rate is about what you want, so you cut off the tight wound coils, square and grind the end and away you go. But, in this case, there are 22 total working coils with 14 open and 8 tight. The open coils are 10.3mm apart, the tight coils 4.4mm apart. This means that when the spring has been compressed 22 x 4.4 = 96.8mm, the tight section will be fully compressed and the open section will become the working section.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Unfortunately, by the above formula, the open section being 14 working coils gives 0.953kg/mm. For a rider weight of 75kg on a Monster that's too much. Appropriate for an ST, but not an M. Also, if we have 14 working coils with 10.3mm between each coil the available spring compression is around 144mm. These forks have around 120mm of travel and you usually have 15mm or so of preload, requiring at least 135mm of compression. I'd not like to run a spring to within 10mm of coil bind. So, for this spring, cutting is not an option. You could cut off less coils, but it would still be a dual rate spring that became a single rate spring of 0.95kg/mm much sooner.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The spring rate I wanted was in the 0.80 - 0.85kg/mm range. As it happens, the oem rate of an ST series spring is 0.83kg/mm. I tend to have a few </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">old </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">ST series springs kicking around as I replace quite a few of them with 0.95kg/mm springs, so I grabbed a pair from the old spring stock and checked them against the originals. As you can see in the above photo, the linear rate ST series spring is </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">2mm longer than </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">the original Monster spring and preload spacer.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br style="background-color: white;" /><span style="background-color: white;">There were a couple of issues I had to attend to to make them fit. I</span><span style="background-color: white;"> had to machine about 0.4mm off the spring inner guide (a ribbed plastic sleeve that goes over the cartridge piston rod and inside the spring) to allow the ST spring to slide over it. Had I used some of the aftermarket springs available I may not have had to do this, but using s/h springs from the pile I have to hand not only recycles a processed piece of natural resource and shares the love, it also knocks about $200 off the job so we can afford a little lathe work.</span><br style="background-color: white;" /><br style="background-color: white;" /><span style="background-color: white;">The ST springs were about 2mm longer than the original springs and preload spacers. The original set up had given 16mm of spring preload as assembled, which I wanted to replicate. But one issue was that the stamped C plate (see photo below) that holds the spring in didn't sit evenly on top of the ST series spring due to the spring inside diameter. Well, it didn't sit nicely on top of the original spring either, and the forks had been incorrectly assembled previously </span></span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">with the preload tube under the spring as it came apart. Ideally I needed a piece of the original preload tube to sit on top of the spring under the C plate, so </span></span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">cut a couple of 6mm slices off one of the original preload tubes. To allow for the increased length (now 8mm over original), I shortened the square aluminium nut that locked the top cap onto the rod by 8mm so that the stamped C plate would sit 8mm higher. Simple. Again, see the photo below for the 3 mentioned pieces: nut, spacer, stamped C clip. Should have put the spacer below the C clip, that'd make more sense.</span><br />
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<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Back together again, </span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">with the bottom on the floor I could almost fully compress the legs with a big bounce of my weight, which seems to be a pretty good test of oil height impact, etc on any fork I find. It's amazing how much you can feel the impact of 30mm of oil height in a simple test like this.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br style="background-color: white;" /><span style="background-color: white;">The top of the cartridge has a recess that a bush on the rod goes into, which when the recess is full of oil becomes a hydraulic bump stop of sorts at full compression. I though that was kind of cute, although it did spray me with oil a couple of times.</span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">So that's where I ended up. On the road on my usual road test loop, which is fairly undemanding in a dynamic sense, it felt quite nice. B<span style="background-color: white;">efore I'd started playing with it (leaking fork seals were the stimulus), the front end didn't really move much. Not too stiff, just reluctant. Now feels like a normal front end. The owner is very happy with it. Even though the spring rate is 33% higher, the fact the forks previously didn't move very much due to the excessive damping has lead to them feeling softer and simply more compliant with the road.</span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;">It'd be nice to have someone who knows suspension give feedback on the result, as it could undoubtedly be improved upon further. But, as a simple starting point, and one that's easily repeatable in the back yard, it's pretty good.</span></span>Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com7tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-88794299041904578032017-11-18T00:24:00.001-08:002017-12-03T02:05:09.192-08:00Minnie pics<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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<br />Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-27708561174743448282017-11-12T17:17:00.002-08:002017-11-12T17:22:47.823-08:00My revised muffler baffle for Minnie<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">This is the baffle I knocked up prior to riding to the FOIM. I realised I was later than I expected at that point, so it was quick. Not pretty, but very effective as it happens. Many years ago Mark Harris who was Madaz at that time told me a baffle needs to fully obstruct the linear flow of the gas to really work, but without that obstruction being overly restrictive as such. The previous one was a shorter tube much the same size with an open end, like a Staintune baffle would be. It really didn't make that much difference.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Not sure how this will work on the dyno. Not sure that I want or care to find out.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-45097731150211702612017-11-12T03:22:00.000-08:002017-11-12T17:04:47.352-08:00An end for Minnie's makeover<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">At the start of the week I had a "to do" list for Minnie to get her ready for the Festival Of Italian Motorcycles today.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">"Front brake work?" at the top literally meant "does the front brake work? With the second front disc adding a corresponding caliper, the demand for front brake fluid displacement increased by 100%. The original single disc front master cylinder is 13mm, the original dual disc front master is either 15 or 16mm, depending on model. My 851 had a 15mm master originally, which I replaced with a 16mm (from my Sport 1100i after I crashed it I think). I was curious to know how it would work with the 13mm, as I'd never tried it before. My feeling was it would just have a lot of travel and probably some good feel. But the reality was you could pull the lever back into the bars with little discernable increase in pressure. Like it had air in it - I spent ages bleeding it thinking I'd screwed that up somehow. Whereas on the road it gave a lot of travel before it finally started to stop, without a lot of feel as to when it was going to stop. So, curiosity answered, larger front master needed. That was Monday's decision.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The 15mm master is 31% bigger, the 16mm 50% bigger. I went looking for my 15, but couldn't find it. I figured the best way to find it was to buy and fit a new 16mm master (it worked). Because the look for this bike is the "coffin" style masters, I had to buy a new one as the Sport 1100i 16mm now on the 851 is a remote reservoir style. The new one turned out to be the new style with the larger fluid reservoir, meaning the lovely Chinese billet reservoir caps I'd bought the week before didn't fit anymore. Great. And the pivot pin, which is cad pacified (gold zinc) </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">plated</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">on the originals, is now silver and I've spent a heap getting all the fasteners replated so I had to refit the "not so shiny like the rest of the fasteners" original. Hmmmmmm. Did have a nice new lever though.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">But, it worked. Funny how a 100% increase in fluid demand is happily dealt with by a 50% increase in delivery. The very cool floating cast iron discs don't like sintered pads, so I went through my stash of old single pin original pads and found a couple of pairs that were bead blasted and fitted. Stops better than it used to with the single disc, but with the organic style pads you just don't get that initial bite that I do enjoy so much. Maybe some new Ferodo Platinums will help. More money.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">So that was #1 ticked off the list.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The speed sensor for the Acewell was the next issue. With the caliper adapters there wasn't anywhere to fit a little bracket like I had previously. I liked the little bracket, as it is a serviceable </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">solution </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">(as in you can remove and refit). My mounting as below is not - double sided taping it to the bottom of the fork leg. The sort of thing that customers do that annoys me. I drilled and tapped a thread into the disc carrier and fitted the little magnet and away we went. Easy. Compared to the 120/70-17 circumference of 1860mm, the 130/60-16 measured at 1735mm. But after riding it around with the iPhone zip tied to the handlebar clamp and the speedo app running, I increased the setting to 1760mm (1.5%) to bring the speedo in on the underside of accurate. #2.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The tacho drive is due to this being an SS engine, which has a cable drive tacho. I do have a Monster blanking plug somewhere (at least one in an engine), but laziness had kept me from moving it any closer to this engine. I found a little blue rubber cap that fitted just fine, and it has resisted bailing for quite some time now. But, I figured I'd make it a little nicer and I like machining stuff, so turned up a little cap and screwed it on with an old cable collar (I always cut them off old cables just in case).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The rocker covers were looking a bit crappy, but I didn't have any paint close to hand that I thought might be a good fit. Well, I have some gold that is possibly a good match for the Paso rockers covers that I always liked, but didn't think it'd match the rest of the bike. I didn't want anything bright, but didn't have any shades of real grey so I gave them a coat of cold gal. With the rocker covers bead blasted and heated with the heat gun the cold gal dried at it hit them, the finish is rather matt and coarse and lighter than I expected, but it's there and that gets it ticked off the list.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">This engine has the D on the timing belt covers and the DUCATI on the alternator and clutch covers, so I scraped, rubbed and polished the paint off. I thought it was a nice little detail.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I needed a new clutch lever and reservoir cap (to match the new original on the brake master) and the master body had a fair bit of scraping along the road damage near the pivot. I figured the best solution was a complete new master. Easy.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I was looking for something to fashion a brake line bracket from to hold the front brake hose at the lower triple. I usually find old horn mounts are good for this sort of stuff, and I stumbled across a nice gold zinc one. Just lovely. A quick bend and on. Another one down.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The last point on the list - frame bolt caps - had me loking for the rubber caps that go into the tubes for the engine/frame bolts, and it took me to a tub that I thought (possibly correctly) contained mostly parts of the disassembled 400SS. And in that tub, I found the 15mm front brake master cylinder. Bugger.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">At least I know where it is, so now I can lose it again for the next time I want to use it.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">To make the inside of the muffler end cap a little less obvious I tried to clean up the inside with some scotchbrite (which didn't work as hoped polish wise), then ran some masking tape around the inside of the outer and the machined end cap. I had machined the end cap prior to giving it to Ken when he made the muffler so I could fit a baffle as used in the last muffler. It didn't make a lot of difference sound wise, so I made another with a smaller and longer internal tube and then folded a piece of sheet metal into a u shape and welded it on. Suitably low rent, and effective I must say. I don't really know if it's that loud, but the high outlet certainly gets into my helmet.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">And today at the FOIM, after a lot of them had left. I think it might be finished at this point. </span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Now I can pull it apart again.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-80005150872512248362017-11-07T04:07:00.013-08:002022-12-04T02:21:13.670-08:00Ducati 2V cam profile comparisons<br />
<span style="font-family: verdana;"><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">I made up a fairly basic jig to hold a 2V head and a couple of dial gauges so I could plot out some 2V cam profiles. I used a spare 400 head I have which is a 3 bearing style head, as opposed to the later 620/695/800 2 bearing head. </span><br />
<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif"><br /></span><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">For test samples I had the following, with their Ducati specs and the measured specs for comparison. Click on any image or graph to make it bigger as required. The dyno graphs are generally from various reports if you want to look for more info there.</span></span><div><br />
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgSfa9jFaTDc56AGtEyuVxFiPyZ8lOqPtKS6d-nczO9GWOrGmPLZJREhmm2_9UFlp3_XC4ZGb5WzWzouIXI2wV7Zx3rhajRMJcfD96Yl3u-FosTJpgYQ5KAPZbeZkjXV93pumzBd2cgrp_0r2bDuh50ujfCDlWDhnPSwtOrwlJKDAp4QWTwiGbJGVT8jQ" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="898" data-original-width="745" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgSfa9jFaTDc56AGtEyuVxFiPyZ8lOqPtKS6d-nczO9GWOrGmPLZJREhmm2_9UFlp3_XC4ZGb5WzWzouIXI2wV7Zx3rhajRMJcfD96Yl3u-FosTJpgYQ5KAPZbeZkjXV93pumzBd2cgrp_0r2bDuh50ujfCDlWDhnPSwtOrwlJKDAp4QWTwiGbJGVT8jQ=s16000" /></a></div><br /></div></div>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgmWGA0BkUOZ3FThDI1Vp5O11wPuvEeFhIVjxz1DZzmBBEKA3pPoqCdS8UDj3P5i5mrtKGm1RenLw2bDGwk497vyBoVWvyTgdCJsTFExpoUF-jYGBuyvMvfnQnBfeDu_oTp9-bqfDF-VQrXvPljJrVa73iiVQJIhh6C70TFfk8JB8qO9TyBXXKDXPCUkg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="403" data-original-width="842" height="306" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgmWGA0BkUOZ3FThDI1Vp5O11wPuvEeFhIVjxz1DZzmBBEKA3pPoqCdS8UDj3P5i5mrtKGm1RenLw2bDGwk497vyBoVWvyTgdCJsTFExpoUF-jYGBuyvMvfnQnBfeDu_oTp9-bqfDF-VQrXvPljJrVa73iiVQJIhh6C70TFfk8JB8qO9TyBXXKDXPCUkg=w640-h306" width="640" /></a></div><br /><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: verdana; text-align: left;">I borrowed some P (Montjuich, Laguna Seca, Santamonica) and 8J (900ie) from Chris Boucher and Peter Nuss on the TT1/F1 forum, so a big thank you to them. The 2S 620 cams had been modified to go into the 3 bearing head as used in the previous installment of the Minnie the 400 debacle. I didn't have any 800 cams (3X and 3U?), and they wouldn't fit into these heads anyway.</span></div></div><span style="font-family: verdana;">
<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif"><br /></span><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">The rig was very much analogue. I did look at some digital dial gauges with outputs, but the cost put me off that pretty quickly. I did the testing at nights, which involved me sitting down, reading the degree wheel and dial gauges every two degrees of cam rotation and typing that into my spreadsheet. It started out as fun, but after the first couple it got a bit dreary, and by the last two was just downright tedious. I was very glad to see the end of the job.</span><br /></span><br />
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<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif"><br /></span><span style="font-family: verdana;"><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">Because I was reading the degree wheel every two degrees, I have cam lift values corresponding to every four degrees of crank rotation. I wasn't going to take readings every degree of the degree wheel - I would have lost my mind.</span><br />
<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif"><br /></span><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">The result is the following.</span><br /></span><br />
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<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif"><br /></span><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif" style="font-family: verdana;">Separating the Pantah head cams out (vertical cylinder carb at rear of head), the following has the Pantah (labelled PH in the chart), F1 and P cams. The F1 cam is the same profile at the R, but ground 8 or so degrees advanced. I had a set at one time that had OE and MV stamped on them. To accommodate the higher inlet valve lift at overlap (inlet valve opening) that advance brings, the F1 pistons have comparatively deeper valve reliefs than the later 750 pistons. From memory they have higher crowns too for more compression. Although both would be less than that required for the P cams fitted to the Montjuich, Laguna Seca and Santamonica models.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjlVlecxnrwsT6tUNhbiNeR5zTV7Cs6wdmwIaijhkJ4u9tO7ZXC2Xlo5qCiRF8EmtxYLnr-FnouDct40AzBpmE4UxCjfzVdjx_IW6r7-tZbVF4j_aAF2uCshfWwZ8lx16KcgXF2_F01on5j/s1600/ph+f1+p.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="642" data-original-width="982" height="418" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjlVlecxnrwsT6tUNhbiNeR5zTV7Cs6wdmwIaijhkJ4u9tO7ZXC2Xlo5qCiRF8EmtxYLnr-FnouDct40AzBpmE4UxCjfzVdjx_IW6r7-tZbVF4j_aAF2uCshfWwZ8lx16KcgXF2_F01on5j/s640/ph+f1+p.png" width="640" /></a></div>
<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif"><br /></span><span style="font-family: verdana;"><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">Immediately obvious is the extra duration and valve lift of the P cam. It's what I would call old school, and what would have been referred to back in the day as "race", or even "full race" if you were going for effect. Cue the oohs and aahs and air sucked through teeth. As with most of the old school race stuff, it's kind of crappy now that good ports and cams are well understood. The greatly increased valve lift at overlap (exhaust closing, inlet opening) is what requires far deeper valve reliefs.</span><br />
<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif"><br /></span><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">I don't understand what it is about the F1 cam that made them want to use that over the original Pantah cam. Similar 1mm lift duration and less lift doesn't really seem like an advancement to me. Bruce Meyers told me the Pantah cams were better in his experience, and now I can see visually that I would expect that to be the case.</span><br />
<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif"><br /></span><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">Next the "Paso" style engines, which simply means vertical head rotated with inlet at the front. Although I think it was the prototype Elefant that first displayed the reversed head in 1983. Anyway, they started out with the R cam, then with the 906 came the HT cam, the HZ in the ST2 in 1997 and the 8J in the 900SSie in 1998. Also available for them were the Vee Two cams, the 210 grind being the same as the DP 06090 and Gia.Co.Moto GM09 and the 212 grind.</span><br />
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<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">The 2S grind, which was fitted to the new 620 engine of 2002, was the first of the two bearing cam fitments. This cam was only fitted to the 620. The 800 also used the two bearing cam with similar duration to the R cam, but with 1.5 - 1.8mm more lift. This was marked 3X (also 3U?). It specs like quite a good cam and worked well in the 800, which made 900 ish hp with the 900 size valves, but 15 or so degrees less duration. This cam was then used in the M695 and M400ie.</span><br />
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<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">First up, R vs 2S.</span><br /></span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjcYwk4XfTo3Ly7eXDXZOhWrDS1u4_P_hE-ThaqjclkSPqdHtmzXaaeBg-lZHRm2J6HFoDKM7GaNB9paI7aFkjC-OpPPNhTTvMIDUaV5nW2uC69VM56W4ptS4eDsqjBXZCZ8kIoGIomgUF0/s1600/r+2s.png" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="650" data-original-width="985" height="422" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjcYwk4XfTo3Ly7eXDXZOhWrDS1u4_P_hE-ThaqjclkSPqdHtmzXaaeBg-lZHRm2J6HFoDKM7GaNB9paI7aFkjC-OpPPNhTTvMIDUaV5nW2uC69VM56W4ptS4eDsqjBXZCZ8kIoGIomgUF0/s640/r+2s.png" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: verdana;"><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">Dyno comparison from Minnie the 400. Red is R @ 108 inlet centreline, blue 2S </span><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">@ 112 inlet centreline and green 2S </span><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">@ 107 inlet centreline.</span></span></div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3iU4iv5azSGqm3NBhmB8Ox99aGnmYF_ZWPH9nockg8f7ewBeDtwP4SEeBgjqOE5A3djqJvlYSD92A2OhnE_xQiBPXRyUdXXQY0SBFOkgr6VtIDcunsGyzlzXaMq1Ox0tlWo4DcBlIhQra/s1600/minnie+620.PNG" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="374" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3iU4iv5azSGqm3NBhmB8Ox99aGnmYF_ZWPH9nockg8f7ewBeDtwP4SEeBgjqOE5A3djqJvlYSD92A2OhnE_xQiBPXRyUdXXQY0SBFOkgr6VtIDcunsGyzlzXaMq1Ox0tlWo4DcBlIhQra/s640/minnie+620.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif" style="font-family: verdana;">R versus HT. The R cam was also used in the W head M900 engines and the Cagiva Elefants and Gran Canyons.</span></div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgiIxIyN2YrqxSv7ZoOqPwF0a_fuG1CM2RXAzizkFRrFMhpDpz403c6gjLRR_g5CQxvMqzPsSF2d1iAsjA5hyphenhyphenSkEkaxfupa-ndWhIhjtxf9lc5kriEKYUqZtN4YYEr-ZedxTsDv7JO8mKnb/s1600/R+HT.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="641" data-original-width="980" height="418" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgiIxIyN2YrqxSv7ZoOqPwF0a_fuG1CM2RXAzizkFRrFMhpDpz403c6gjLRR_g5CQxvMqzPsSF2d1iAsjA5hyphenhyphenSkEkaxfupa-ndWhIhjtxf9lc5kriEKYUqZtN4YYEr-ZedxTsDv7JO8mKnb/s640/R+HT.png" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif" style="font-family: verdana;">Dyno comaprison from my M750 with ported, big valve heads. R @ 114 is blue, HT @ 107 is red. I later realised that I had taken some ignition advance out of it which did hurt the power at the top end. But I assume both curves would have been similarly affected. It was nowhere near as much change as I expected (or had hoped).</span></div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh2f9_La30dr1SxAWJ10RKgzy35_Ea7g2kF3BpM4DESrsMBfkQTDJHFRV5ieImKSW5HSaurnhU1YgqREMjiCiTJPe04G6EdlRvL6HwJZxEukkxbVLJ08cr9Vl1ZAEt8gJ1SVT6fqoiY0wxx/s1600/r+vs+ht.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="511" data-original-width="1112" height="294" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh2f9_La30dr1SxAWJ10RKgzy35_Ea7g2kF3BpM4DESrsMBfkQTDJHFRV5ieImKSW5HSaurnhU1YgqREMjiCiTJPe04G6EdlRvL6HwJZxEukkxbVLJ08cr9Vl1ZAEt8gJ1SVT6fqoiY0wxx/s640/r+vs+ht.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif" style="font-family: verdana;">This is a 750SSie I did prior to my M750. Green is R as delivered, blue is HT @ 119 and red is HT @ 107. I did quite a bit of tuning to it with the HT cams @ 119, both fuel and ignition advance. The 107 run is with the same mapping, just a cam timing change after the engine came apart and the piston inlet valve reliefs were machined 1.5mm deeper to allow more cam advance.</span></div>
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<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgdvuD3F9Y2Gryrhq721SbS6H_SBEmQ7DgW7fekMaU-UXr-9BHZgrZ0HXI1kLFXe-5D4HAz8FkB8fBPKrbQrUt0K0o8CNsgxRzuNqXrl5TfGGq3y-zM3BfbnW9uDGOD6zbpPelmjzIcgJH5UxSbQ_16Q5R7oT9NMnVD12kT_11DU0Do-zk8MDvbKzFogg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="598" data-original-width="1064" height="360" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgdvuD3F9Y2Gryrhq721SbS6H_SBEmQ7DgW7fekMaU-UXr-9BHZgrZ0HXI1kLFXe-5D4HAz8FkB8fBPKrbQrUt0K0o8CNsgxRzuNqXrl5TfGGq3y-zM3BfbnW9uDGOD6zbpPelmjzIcgJH5UxSbQ_16Q5R7oT9NMnVD12kT_11DU0Do-zk8MDvbKzFogg=w640-h360" width="640" /></a></div></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif" style="font-family: verdana;">Removing the HT @ 119 run makes it a bit clearer.</span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEg5cbub6sONM6UG-X04g_hVgbvNl98iHJh0vlgvQ-dB_6lZOE31zs3Be9qGLytQG53phsZ0scDJHkIHobJD3jMlt6fli3LiTnywGiWkbj0dtnnvcA5nO9OtkGgJltYz0035ZuR1FGuzLo4B92qsQGud4mj0vKbUo-8t7WrEGbsE71tr-SHDFmMlfNTUgA" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="598" data-original-width="1064" height="360" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEg5cbub6sONM6UG-X04g_hVgbvNl98iHJh0vlgvQ-dB_6lZOE31zs3Be9qGLytQG53phsZ0scDJHkIHobJD3jMlt6fli3LiTnywGiWkbj0dtnnvcA5nO9OtkGgJltYz0035ZuR1FGuzLo4B92qsQGud4mj0vKbUo-8t7WrEGbsE71tr-SHDFmMlfNTUgA=w640-h360" width="640" /></a></div><br /></span></div>
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<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif" style="font-family: verdana;">R vs 8J</span></div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg-WDsAZ5Alg_rekk021Af-cKa97OKih25huLuOXE7jXHaZjX97sSI4xd1DqEC9cmZI85DcS9R3-q0esxrmWPf7rAqtgJ-tuJ2_U6NwmkVMHjycWFgNx4w89fMMtgUZ7nH-udrg69A55GL2/s1600/R+8J.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="641" data-original-width="980" height="418" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg-WDsAZ5Alg_rekk021Af-cKa97OKih25huLuOXE7jXHaZjX97sSI4xd1DqEC9cmZI85DcS9R3-q0esxrmWPf7rAqtgJ-tuJ2_U6NwmkVMHjycWFgNx4w89fMMtgUZ7nH-udrg69A55GL2/s640/R+8J.png" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif" style="font-family: verdana;">Dyno comparison from a Cagiva Gran Canyon, which is a 900ie engine with the W heads - R cams and 41/35mm valves. We fitted 8J cams to it set to 106 degrees inlet centreline in the hope it would make some more power. Not enough, as it turned out. It was still 8 or so down on the 900SSie engine with 43/38mm valve V heads.</span></div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhJ4GkpB5VdukInAWcUZGlgoDTFN4Rx-QEGB4oqJpfKowmyUgfwBGQ6HTJnJG9GRFvb5YqZfGY5LWNs_1MmhEtROcgOyYscJ9WnxVjlH9kpz5I2bMMJNHnpFPJnG8y5MiLBowhQIRD6vjMA/s1600/gran+canyon+r+vs+8j.PNG" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="374" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhJ4GkpB5VdukInAWcUZGlgoDTFN4Rx-QEGB4oqJpfKowmyUgfwBGQ6HTJnJG9GRFvb5YqZfGY5LWNs_1MmhEtROcgOyYscJ9WnxVjlH9kpz5I2bMMJNHnpFPJnG8y5MiLBowhQIRD6vjMA/s640/gran+canyon+r+vs+8j.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif" style="font-family: verdana;">The 900 cams - HT, HZ (ST2) and 8J. The ST2 cam has gained a reputation for being the best, and of working well in a 900 carb engine, but I've never seen any dyno proof of that.</span><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif"><br /></span>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgI0sYp-E-M5F7jkCWkkMpVIqY97NZP0NWGO5uNbsUEiEvV_nj9sfOpU3OlF-bi4wUjOsZNi25PHHw0g4BS4rtUvOk5Ym7bzvlpXdQhOM9-I0VgwNNUPTLelOy3byaZx2AVv8a9Y2uCJ2Uq/s1600/ht+8j+st2.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="641" data-original-width="980" height="418" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgI0sYp-E-M5F7jkCWkkMpVIqY97NZP0NWGO5uNbsUEiEvV_nj9sfOpU3OlF-bi4wUjOsZNi25PHHw0g4BS4rtUvOk5Ym7bzvlpXdQhOM9-I0VgwNNUPTLelOy3byaZx2AVv8a9Y2uCJ2Uq/s640/ht+8j+st2.png" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif" style="font-family: verdana;">There's really not a great deal of difference between the 8J and HZ. The 8J inlet peaks a little earlier and longer. If you compare the area under the curves, again there's little difference. </span></div>
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<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">If we add the two Vee Two cams to the above, you get a somewhat confusing graph, but the two Vee Two cams stand out for their similar exhaust profiles to the HZ and 8J and their similar inlet profiles to each other. The 210 definitely works at a lower rpm range than the 212. Both of these cams don't match their specs, as below:</span><br /></span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjeroeiSN4nIpOe_8rqbBf3V_dyAwcMZDIAitbDWGdzua2iroJOAWuUDYi3c4t6Clu-yuLGx7r4Dv_61bouCw2VURhpjBtfw4lP3g02Zl16Mf8PU76jX5P13eSvNjZitN2Fqi4dMy2qcuKU/s1600/V2+SPECS.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="133" data-original-width="990" height="84" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjeroeiSN4nIpOe_8rqbBf3V_dyAwcMZDIAitbDWGdzua2iroJOAWuUDYi3c4t6Clu-yuLGx7r4Dv_61bouCw2VURhpjBtfw4lP3g02Zl16Mf8PU76jX5P13eSvNjZitN2Fqi4dMy2qcuKU/s640/V2+SPECS.png" width="640" /></a></div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgPPmuRGwpMErELcKycStw1AZ2lTraHQgvLgSAm-_JHOqLnABPCyW_3qVHl6N-Rub0VEzyz84rQAG-uMIegHiz7n1xrgiyDiBv6XTdejt9TTbLQL8qycUA0lDvml4pbF-uXXXiMHpSqifFx/s1600/all+900.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="641" data-original-width="981" height="417" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgPPmuRGwpMErELcKycStw1AZ2lTraHQgvLgSAm-_JHOqLnABPCyW_3qVHl6N-Rub0VEzyz84rQAG-uMIegHiz7n1xrgiyDiBv6XTdejt9TTbLQL8qycUA0lDvml4pbF-uXXXiMHpSqifFx/s640/all+900.png" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif" style="font-family: verdana;">HT vs 210. The inlet duration is not much different, and the 210 certainly has a lot more area under both curves. But the lesser exhaust duration is what hurts it at the top end.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgmiyYQ0Ow_atFilvWu3jtyUsHqkfw09kRLu9JZ88ikKSVtkfWCPkvgPKYjOIkumpMhQ_WTRp-imq5tspWx1aPm_sfCrmO1q_T7r075J8OaaQu6QDQde_sWhpP0Ver4XYiuNwa3F1AMqnfz/s1600/HT+210.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="641" data-original-width="981" height="418" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgmiyYQ0Ow_atFilvWu3jtyUsHqkfw09kRLu9JZ88ikKSVtkfWCPkvgPKYjOIkumpMhQ_WTRp-imq5tspWx1aPm_sfCrmO1q_T7r075J8OaaQu6QDQde_sWhpP0Ver4XYiuNwa3F1AMqnfz/s640/HT+210.png" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif" style="font-family: verdana;">Dyno comparison of a 900SS, fitted with Omrae slip on mufflers and otherwise std. Well, I believe the after run is the first of the tuning runs. Red is HT as delivered, probably in the 113 - 115 degrees inlet centreline range, blue 210 @ 105 I think. It certainly picked up the midrange, which is what the long manifold carb motors are all about.</span></div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhUXqscko79eiDXYsxfEM0HmdbS8VV5xzBfLECIhgzeNPkgmV6nFbNEzSOJDhT5sXpBgAmBsl5mXJKcPeP4L9pGuXOBdHNND-Aw7Ro-Wfvg2vn5GbwOmFuEpVqRM5tRauopz5u7gAnu8Ljj/s1600/HT+210+DYNO.PNG" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="374" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhUXqscko79eiDXYsxfEM0HmdbS8VV5xzBfLECIhgzeNPkgmV6nFbNEzSOJDhT5sXpBgAmBsl5mXJKcPeP4L9pGuXOBdHNND-Aw7Ro-Wfvg2vn5GbwOmFuEpVqRM5tRauopz5u7gAnu8Ljj/s640/HT+210+DYNO.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span face=""verdana" , sans-serif" style="font-family: verdana;">That's it for direct comparisons. I'll finish by quoting Bruce Meyers, who has a lot of experience playing with these engines. He posted this in relation to hotting up the 800 engines on a forum some years ago, and I think it's a good piece for reference:</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: verdana;"><i><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">--900SS Carby cams: give a nice increase from 4000 rpm up with avg +4 rwhp over stock cam.</span></span><br />
</i></span><div>
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: verdana; font-size: 10pt;"><i><br /></i></span></div>
<span style="font-family: verdana;"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt;"><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">--ST2 cams: Net a bit more on top end rwhp with no loss of midrange.</span></span><br />
</i></span><div>
<span style="font-family: verdana;"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt;"><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif"><br /></span></span>
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt;"><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">--900SSie cams: Net alot more on top, maybe 2-4 more rwhp than carby cams but a slight loss </span></span></i></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt;"><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif" style="font-family: verdana;"><i>at 4500 rpm. I think that dip could be tuned out with a good pipe.</i></span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: verdana;"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt;"><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif"><br /></span></span>
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt;"><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">--V2 212 cams: Exactly the same as 900SSie cam results</span></span></i></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: verdana;"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt;"><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif"><br /></span></span>
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt;"><span face=""verdana" , sans-serif">--V2 210 cams: Exactly the same as ST2 cam results</span></span><br /></i></span>
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</div>Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-26678716146466769402017-10-10T04:23:00.004-07:002017-10-10T04:47:23.703-07:00Minnie the 400 Monster gets 620 cams: One has one's arse handed to oneself yet again.<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Some time ago I bought some 620 cams and sent them out to Ian Drysdale to have them modified to suit the earlier 3 bearing heads so I could try them in other things - namely my 400. I've also made a rig to hold a spare 400 head I have that allows me to read cam lift as the cam is rotated. It's all very analogue (ie, me sitting there looking at a degree wheel and dial gauges) and gives me valve lift every 4 degrees of crank rotation. You'll see more of that in the future. This way I could compare the 400/600/750 cam (labelled R) and the 620 cam (2S), as below.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgac7o0nTIukc8znhkx8WLdCwCQMSI7Bg_m4CuOwo5E0M4lLCNH-tD2QOoTp69quUuLu8efrI61R3OBw8vRNNZiBPoOicvBmT-SVfMGVeqnqLVLJxoa7WqB7_txhMaZm67ccJ0llHyE2uj_/s1600/r+2s.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="642" data-original-width="981" height="418" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgac7o0nTIukc8znhkx8WLdCwCQMSI7Bg_m4CuOwo5E0M4lLCNH-tD2QOoTp69quUuLu8efrI61R3OBw8vRNNZiBPoOicvBmT-SVfMGVeqnqLVLJxoa7WqB7_txhMaZm67ccJ0llHyE2uj_/s640/r+2s.png" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Spec wise, the 2S is like the R, but with the inlet closing 15 or so degrees earlier and with more lift on both inlet and exhaust. In profile, the exhaust is a bit bigger and has an earlier peak while the inlet is as expected. The reason I wanted to try the 620 cam is that the 400 has a long flat power curve at the top end - it's pretty flat from 9 to 11. As such, I was wondering if it was over cammed, and figured the 620 cam should be better and a good illustrator of why. What I was hoping to see on the dyno with the 620 cam was </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">peak</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">power of the same or more, the peak moved down the rpm range and </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">the power</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">dropping away </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">after the peak.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Spec comparison as below:</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgPmA36CPoj1oqHlwOcSY5R022XyNDFC-Ju_jGCQSF_13D4JGRW3La8odnHCvvuJ9Qj0vkfUtb08YDF_8mTchlILLjLKgfyaDJo0ECTaOyEONx4I6SPOzF-0_qbVzW1AOcIwPv5AJR0sqte/s1600/r+2s+specs.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="104" data-original-width="706" height="94" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgPmA36CPoj1oqHlwOcSY5R022XyNDFC-Ju_jGCQSF_13D4JGRW3La8odnHCvvuJ9Qj0vkfUtb08YDF_8mTchlILLjLKgfyaDJo0ECTaOyEONx4I6SPOzF-0_qbVzW1AOcIwPv5AJR0sqte/s640/r+2s+specs.png" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I fitted the 620 cams at the inlet centreline spec of 112 degrees, and with the drilled pullies I could advance them to 107 to see what happened. I was also considering retarding them on the dyno as well, but didn't bother in the end. As usual, the results sucked all the motivation right out of me.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Red is R cam at 108 degrees, blue is 2S cam at 112 degrees and green is 2S cam at 107 degrees. The midrange improvement is between 5,700 and 7,100 rpm, and the top end loss starts at 8,500 rpm. Given we're only dealing with 38 hp at the peak, we're not talking great differences here.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">As an aside, the runs below are all done with an original 2-2 header and the Megacycle mufflers. I pulled the 2-1 a few weeks ago and jammed the original horizontal header onto the modified vertical header. A dyno run showed the same power as where we started all that time ago, and with much the same richness as all the std airbox lid (both snorkels fitted) runs for the 2-1.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj_AMdJoB8c7UcVd8mJxrUS0gj9DwGf8ImesbODn8nvMOWgCP2HeG1fDm2FgTF-Pk0o4or70xvSRP-6lPxxXmV4R_Ohcam4fv9BePj58G7-pcGbtQULCMW_SqdWUpYkC2DA9EG5DYPQ01fL/s1600/minnie+620.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="374" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj_AMdJoB8c7UcVd8mJxrUS0gj9DwGf8ImesbODn8nvMOWgCP2HeG1fDm2FgTF-Pk0o4or70xvSRP-6lPxxXmV4R_Ohcam4fv9BePj58G7-pcGbtQULCMW_SqdWUpYkC2DA9EG5DYPQ01fL/s640/minnie+620.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Mixture wise, it didn't do much at all. Still too rich (std 2001 my M400 carbs and jetting). Top graph is horizontal, second vertical from memory.</span></div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgkIcA1YK6cypHGs_9zTN7xXPD-PcMRAunefIdyqKItxsw1XVxcvct980QSwOTFntFoGOWbevLLZL8xjXze4TAxXEnT_T3X0kN0AMB7ikVKcqEOKWmtsJGe8QH_AsFHzoytkTq643ILWH5G/s1600/MINNIE+620+2.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="374" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgkIcA1YK6cypHGs_9zTN7xXPD-PcMRAunefIdyqKItxsw1XVxcvct980QSwOTFntFoGOWbevLLZL8xjXze4TAxXEnT_T3X0kN0AMB7ikVKcqEOKWmtsJGe8QH_AsFHzoytkTq643ILWH5G/s640/MINNIE+620+2.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">To lean it out a bit I thought I'd try to usual trick of pulling a snorkle, which had the usual effect, as below.</span></div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg20IQ2fi6wN6Eds-GkTpvTm8Zl_IOhMm2JEITXlH00UaG6X4W1kjzh2-wP1zCoZm9_ukpUJ54b6uZMOsZQmNG2vqESSLaMqnWlwveNUkxAaqWi_yTHH9u2ocWxVtD3ODrwtVcFFeC8RBtV/s1600/MINNIE+620+4.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"></a><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg20IQ2fi6wN6Eds-GkTpvTm8Zl_IOhMm2JEITXlH00UaG6X4W1kjzh2-wP1zCoZm9_ukpUJ54b6uZMOsZQmNG2vqESSLaMqnWlwveNUkxAaqWi_yTHH9u2ocWxVtD3ODrwtVcFFeC8RBtV/s1600/MINNIE+620+4.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="374" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg20IQ2fi6wN6Eds-GkTpvTm8Zl_IOhMm2JEITXlH00UaG6X4W1kjzh2-wP1zCoZm9_ukpUJ54b6uZMOsZQmNG2vqESSLaMqnWlwveNUkxAaqWi_yTHH9u2ocWxVtD3ODrwtVcFFeC8RBtV/s640/MINNIE+620+4.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgIDdAGVP1dry_fyQ-3meQiRaKSp9EGrsdzxa_KRjZ1c83hJUJLy7MqathGeGZ5gDfZ9qD5Emxh7ENwnPWEaUw1cQsIsEQYOM3FuiEymUSkBdt5v-JMIJ7Gsq9_adt8qELMROOTDJuLH6YS/s1600/MINNIE+620+3.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="374" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgIDdAGVP1dry_fyQ-3meQiRaKSp9EGrsdzxa_KRjZ1c83hJUJLy7MqathGeGZ5gDfZ9qD5Emxh7ENwnPWEaUw1cQsIsEQYOM3FuiEymUSkBdt5v-JMIJ7Gsq9_adt8qELMROOTDJuLH6YS/s640/MINNIE+620+3.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Still generally too rich, but better.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">As the graphs show, what I wanted to see and what I did see were two different things. I have become accustomed to dyno disappointment with this bike.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">But my mechanical sympathy has me cringing as I rev it over 9,000 rpm looking to use the last of those 38 hp, it's not something I like doing when there's no performance gain to be had. When I first made the 2-1 and fitted the Acewell dash I was running it up to 8,000 rpm or so and it felt great. Dyno shows that the 2-1 with Danmoto muffler turns to crap around 7,000 rpm, but under that, and especially through the midrange, it's as good or better than the 2-2. With the Megacycle muffler it holds the power a bit longer, and definitely felt better on the road between 8 and 9,000 rpm when I held it open just to see how it felt. But I wouldn't normally go that high riding it around, so I'm a bit caught in the dyno number loop here as it would be. Or, more to the point (let's be honest here), I didn't expect the things I did to work so badly nor require so many excuses.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Now with the 620 cams it's better again </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">in the midrange, and I think I'll go back to the 2-1 and one snorkel and either tolerate the Danmoto noise or get another muffler made. I have a design in mind, whether it comes to fruition or not is another matter.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">As a comparison to where it was all std, it's not too bad. Mufflers, cams and one snorkel out of the airbox lid in red, all std in blue. As a graph, it looks great until you read the numbers on the LH side and think "oh". Its got another 4 - 5 hp for most of the rev range, which, when you've only got 37 all up, is at least 10%, and more as you go down in rpm. Woohoo! Doesn't make it much faster though. It's slow. Kinda fun, but still way slow.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgN6YoKqvd79EtmqqJ7UfkOfLSfsCdKQFdYoz5FPUwv99fRO0KnfqTFahUIx9o81j5AZBoYCjhhsCe6x4PEcZWAXNf-HYcmk3ReRRsE-_tTmkxLVPdyD-bdXI27btrFmlOKshQM3LCKGx09/s1600/minnie+620+5.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="374" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgN6YoKqvd79EtmqqJ7UfkOfLSfsCdKQFdYoz5FPUwv99fRO0KnfqTFahUIx9o81j5AZBoYCjhhsCe6x4PEcZWAXNf-HYcmk3ReRRsE-_tTmkxLVPdyD-bdXI27btrFmlOKshQM3LCKGx09/s640/minnie+620+5.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com5tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-64345613708305129572017-09-20T04:03:00.003-07:002017-09-20T05:00:57.865-07:00Minnie the 400 Monster: Not getting anywhere<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">Man, this thing is just kicking my arse.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">What often happens with a project bike of mine is that at some point I go off on a pointless tangent and just dig myself a great big hole. No point breaking tradition here.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">My custom job introduced an obvious issue with the 2 - 1 exhaust, and it has occurred to me that adding the fairing may have played with the fuelling as well. I've certainly been caught out on that before.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">I'd be thinking about what to do about it, and had been getting close to buying another std horizontal header to modify to work with the ceramic coated vertical header and then get a couple of mufflers made to suit.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">Thinking about what I had seen with the dyno runs so far, and Dave's comments that i should rejet it to fix the top end richness, I had a look back at some of the runs to see if there was anything to give me hope. I know from lots of previous experience that top end richness on the Dynojet really kills the power. Maybe it's richness past the torque peak, as it doesn't seem to affect the power as much through the middle. A couple of runs caught my attention.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">Red is the 2-1 header with the Danmoto muffler and no baffle, blue is the same with one of the snorkels removed to lean it out. The improvement in top end power with mixture a bit over 13:1 (good for dyno power, but a bit lean on the road imo) was about 4hp.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgQAYLOUOOlk1DIluDSPxdx_jQUJbgNI4v7vCxcLQ-ljBNF9-EWagezPf5emwlnGFXajCTw-PZPqZ2KYZ_rzladGSnRV3cwhxX6amoMIsnzGxHbikwj6CxxcBFstJAZ88GxeDZM5oJCs7FC/s1600/minnie+31.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="375" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgQAYLOUOOlk1DIluDSPxdx_jQUJbgNI4v7vCxcLQ-ljBNF9-EWagezPf5emwlnGFXajCTw-PZPqZ2KYZ_rzladGSnRV3cwhxX6amoMIsnzGxHbikwj6CxxcBFstJAZ88GxeDZM5oJCs7FC/s640/minnie+31.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">4hp is about what I'm down from the original headers. Red is std headers and two Megacycle mufflers, blue is 2-1 and one Megacycle muffler. An extra 4hp through the top end would be just great, especially with the midrange improvement.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiVogeRtkaEWiK1GOYDUu-6pxgTw9dgiyu7t9nRHWei3FLfqINAhS1WG41WDTnzaciCpAX9Hij0enp_MssKH-OsK2tSRO-pSm4vc0o3nLuEpUahHCRbMLPs8z4r6yRbRjmvEiqikpdYk3aN/s1600/minnie+32.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="374" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiVogeRtkaEWiK1GOYDUu-6pxgTw9dgiyu7t9nRHWei3FLfqINAhS1WG41WDTnzaciCpAX9Hij0enp_MssKH-OsK2tSRO-pSm4vc0o3nLuEpUahHCRbMLPs8z4r6yRbRjmvEiqikpdYk3aN/s640/minnie+32.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">So the obvious was to lean it out. When I fitted this 400 engine I set these carbs up with the 2001 M400 jetting, which is the same as the M600. From my video of the slides lifting through the air filter lid, I figured the rich dip was main jet related. Std is 132.5, and I had 122.5 and 127.5 on hand to choose from. I was concerned 127.5 wouldn't be enough of a change, so went 122.5.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">Easier said than done. The fairing mounting brackets I made bolt off the bottom of the ignition switch, and all the wiring for the dash, including the original loom sections I needed to hide, are jammed on top of the airbox under the ignition switch. All of which had to be removed to get the airbox out to access the float bowls. I'd forgotten about all that guff when I allocated a couple of weekend hours to a main jet change, so it was straight into tanty time from the get go. Only got myself to blame, on so many fronts.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">It's fitted with a heater kit too, so the float bowls are hard to far enough out of the way to get into the mains.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">After I had it back together I went for a ride. Well, first I had to make the dash work again, as disconnecting it made it lose the wheel diameter and the tacho seemed a bit screwy, reading a bit too high.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">On the road it felt great, revving out nicely compared to how it had felt before. Brimming with (over) confidence, I took the chance for an early morning trip to the dyno and typically it went tits up. On the way there I tried some WOT and it felt pretty crap - flat and surgy - through the midrange. Turns out it dynod just like it felt. Crap.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEic0wSZP7EPHCftlbjPDflxZDurUr9h9VA0Eqi5s7eGBVwKilYAGhvYCF2CyOfTZHiChFfkhVUknkEx8A4WrXy1dsS-N_gvJe4S1mw2z3QzIYcimAB8yrvcQFCoYEfNptz8Ot5zx2hDdKgx/s1600/minnie+33.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="374" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEic0wSZP7EPHCftlbjPDflxZDurUr9h9VA0Eqi5s7eGBVwKilYAGhvYCF2CyOfTZHiChFfkhVUknkEx8A4WrXy1dsS-N_gvJe4S1mw2z3QzIYcimAB8yrvcQFCoYEfNptz8Ot5zx2hDdKgx/s640/minnie+33.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">Compared to some previous runs, it gets a bit murky. The dyno has just had the air/fuel cell replaced, so I don't know if that has influenced anything. Doesn't explain the difference in how the bike felt though. Anyway, red is with the leaner 122.5 main jets and one snorkel removed. Blue is 132.5 main jets and about 5 degrees more ignition advance over std. Green is the same, but with std ignition advance. So I </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">really</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">don't know what is going on with it.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgqmol8cyt-ov02aBi57b46w6tGEssZlLYJFPxtTr0vGSE6wnUhxvELr7YZJQyVXTIve5gHnycWYRC6PjdWNvuR6Bs7Fk0dxXTq5UozWawNlWjNvWPTU06ukAorhyphenhyphenWhjMjeP6mPXbyAR3LH/s1600/minnie+34.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="374" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgqmol8cyt-ov02aBi57b46w6tGEssZlLYJFPxtTr0vGSE6wnUhxvELr7YZJQyVXTIve5gHnycWYRC6PjdWNvuR6Bs7Fk0dxXTq5UozWawNlWjNvWPTU06ukAorhyphenhyphenWhjMjeP6mPXbyAR3LH/s640/minnie+34.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">The problem is where to go next. I want to fit some 620 cams to see what happens to the power curve. I'm hoping that with the early inlet closing, they'll peak the power lower and reduce the need for so many revs. But, the fact the factory used the 800 cam in the M400ie instead of the 620 cams makes me wonder if that too is just folly.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">Before I do that, I want to make sure the result is not tainted by an idiotic exhaust or a wacky fairing. Plus I have no idea what the original jetting was like with the original headers, which may itself have not been good. You know where that's going.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">Either way, the airbox needs to come out and the 132.5 main jets go back in again which means fighting with the airbox and wiring and other crap and really, I'd have been far better off just leaving the jetting the way it was and fitting the original headers I have. Joy.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">I can always refit the other exhaust when it needs to look good I guess. I'm even going off that look too.</span>Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-40707855208108924792017-08-25T23:31:00.003-07:002017-08-30T17:18:43.866-07:00Minnie the 400 Monster: Muffler comparison test with the 2 -1 header (ie, why is it so bad)<div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">I had the feeling that the Danmoto muffler I had modified for Minnie to go with my 2 -1 header set was the cause of the poor top end. Getting back to the dyno with a Megacycle muffler fitted proved to be a bit of an organisational nightmare, but I finally got there.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="color: #111111; font-size: large;">Red is the original headers and two of the Megacycle mufflers. Blue the 2-1 header with the Danmoto muffler from the previous. Green is the same as that run, but with one of the Megacycle mufflers instead of the Danmoto. Bit richer, more power - possibly different wideband sensor to the last runs (wacky?). Yellow is with Megacycle muffler and one of the airbox lid snorkels removed. Nowhere near as lean as the runs from last time with a snorkel out, not sure why. Maybe that was no air filter as well.</span></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br style="color: #111111;" /><span style="color: #111111; font-size: large;">All of which means it dyno'd like it felt with the Megacycle muffler - better, and pulled through the top end nicer. Still down on power though.</span></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="color: #111111; font-size: large;">An aside here is that when the bike was running the std 2 - 2 header set I didn't have a tacho fitted, and I'm sure I never went over 7,000 rpm. So that big jump in the std header curve, which happens at around 7,200 rpm, I may never have felt.</span></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="color: #111111; font-size: large;">I took a std muffler with me for these dyno runs, and some Kokusan ignition units to replace the Ignitech. I have had intermittant cylinder dropping at idle when hot with this bike for years, across 2 engines now so I know it's not engine related. I thought I had swapped the Ignitech out without success in the past, but I must say that the issue has not reappeared with these Kokusan units fitted in the couple of times I have ridden Minnie since. To be fair to the Ignitech, it is the unit I originally bought back in 2006 or so. It's had a good run, and the new version has a dedicated MAP sensor input which works much better than trying to mimic a TPS with a map sensor. Maybe I just needed a reason to not feel bad about updating it.</span></span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="color: #111111; font-size: large;">Std muffler in blue, Danmoto in red and Megacycle in yellow. The air/fuel is a bit unexpected in as much as the red line seems a bit lean, but it may be a physically different sensor (I had two to choose from). Also you can see that an open muffler leans it out. I had thought that maybe these carbs would richen up with an open muffler due to the way CV carbs work, but I'm still not convinced this was a good test. Danmoto is still better than std! For an illustration of the hollowness of that victory, see the following graph.</span></span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgMLvaLvHYJ7aUw219DUnwMm4-MZteCajVzBBzGjYnDh9NN7gf-AEt_czOMY-i76cCId3iXgnfk3FzeWHmhuvgl7m8f6bpIVm8BCkELBBDskFbwxIuNXlx9YAdSSn961ZyE5RQ0_TjnHHVQ/s1600/minnie+2-1+muff+comp+3.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="374" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgMLvaLvHYJ7aUw219DUnwMm4-MZteCajVzBBzGjYnDh9NN7gf-AEt_czOMY-i76cCId3iXgnfk3FzeWHmhuvgl7m8f6bpIVm8BCkELBBDskFbwxIuNXlx9YAdSSn961ZyE5RQ0_TjnHHVQ/s640/minnie+2-1+muff+comp+3.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">As from the previous graph, blue is 2 - 1 header with std muffler, red is 2-1 header with Danmoto muffler and green is way back when with std 2 - 2 headers and std mufflers (all with 108 cam timing). Yay! The line for a shot to the pills starts behind me.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhhQeQfbmjNZlDKWcQYSKR0X_tXGjP5FyS59CivtnuGqrH4YhNAAe4TEdL0ff59ro6YITNi2u1fWLLsEkcy4z5_zmIy0tTiLZ-l3Cc1NK_E5_c6fUkipR26WSrr2lBAj22DU6tZ1KMNeWsA/s1600/minnie+2-1+muff+comp+4.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="374" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhhQeQfbmjNZlDKWcQYSKR0X_tXGjP5FyS59CivtnuGqrH4YhNAAe4TEdL0ff59ro6YITNi2u1fWLLsEkcy4z5_zmIy0tTiLZ-l3Cc1NK_E5_c6fUkipR26WSrr2lBAj22DU6tZ1KMNeWsA/s640/minnie+2-1+muff+comp+4.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">Anyway, onward into the slurry. Red is std muffler as before, blue is Megacycle muffler with Ignitech ignition, green is Megacycle muffler with Kokusan ignition and yellow is Megacycle muffler with Kokusan ignition and one snorkel pulled from the airbox lid. Helps with the richness.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEir-pB9pG8-wYcTC4v5Z-qnIeYqhZXS7UlaW1bRWI2U45G4_LA3CTqyJPWswYmNvjPcMEtqlwU3aRoEQdDvxPg71jy0tMQEkPzZUP_9-cYhbI7-tZUUTRW4evy1NQUYeMSOaiUg0GGu-oy2/s1600/minnie+2-1+muff+comp+2.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="374" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEir-pB9pG8-wYcTC4v5Z-qnIeYqhZXS7UlaW1bRWI2U45G4_LA3CTqyJPWswYmNvjPcMEtqlwU3aRoEQdDvxPg71jy0tMQEkPzZUP_9-cYhbI7-tZUUTRW4evy1NQUYeMSOaiUg0GGu-oy2/s640/minnie+2-1+muff+comp+2.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="color: #111111; font-size: large;">Comparing headers only (std versus my 2 - 1), first up std mufflers. </span></span></div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgOaOYJ8Cc01c0E-EdyB_x5e0hTFCuh9VhdPufp_LReyrjKG4oaGbumtLskDFjIYstGt31N8YYjmrotiyGgY7byIFywMITO57ndH04q6Nc8DYJXeKmLuueL3z3Md8QigqXY1izy0dBAKoP2/s1600/minnie+2-1+muff+comp+5.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="374" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgOaOYJ8Cc01c0E-EdyB_x5e0hTFCuh9VhdPufp_LReyrjKG4oaGbumtLskDFjIYstGt31N8YYjmrotiyGgY7byIFywMITO57ndH04q6Nc8DYJXeKmLuueL3z3Md8QigqXY1izy0dBAKoP2/s640/minnie+2-1+muff+comp+5.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">And the Megacycle mufflers. The point where the two curves cross is bang on 7,000 rpm.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiD_ZJPaNIdifnGXqwdCQjmZbXBtXLxwQqsz8czlBURO4OxRqjF_aiJeknovPtosdrA9s1AUz2h1oUxSkuPCqg2Mf0UMHioCPxhHG0yLkQSaTp-ANBQzcZu8qweUo1-w6ou-3We0RZS8S8N/s1600/minnie+2-1+muff+comp+6.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="374" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiD_ZJPaNIdifnGXqwdCQjmZbXBtXLxwQqsz8czlBURO4OxRqjF_aiJeknovPtosdrA9s1AUz2h1oUxSkuPCqg2Mf0UMHioCPxhHG0yLkQSaTp-ANBQzcZu8qweUo1-w6ou-3We0RZS8S8N/s640/minnie+2-1+muff+comp+6.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: large;"><span style="color: #111111;">So, some conclusions of sorts.</span><br style="color: #111111;" /><br style="color: #111111;" /><span style="color: #111111;">1/ The Danmoto muffler I really like doesn't work.</span></span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: large;"><br style="color: #111111;" /><span style="color: #111111;">2/ The 2-1 header I made doesn't work.</span></span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: large;"><br style="color: #111111;" /><span style="color: #111111;">3/ It's too rich at the top end. From my test of watching the slides lift through the airbox lid I think i'll call it a main jet issue. If pulling the other snorkel fixed that without hurting the midrange I'd be all over it, but as that wishful plan didn't pan out I'll ignore it for as long as I can't be arsed pulling the airbox out.</span></span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: large;"><br style="color: #111111;" /><span style="color: #111111;">4/ Original headers don't work anymore due to the lack of muffler mounts due to the Ducabike rearsets. And the vertical header has been shortened, so any main header will need to be cut, bent and welded as this 2 - 1 header was for them to join. I did find another original vertical header at work, so I could fit that.</span></span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #111111; font-size: large;">5/ One has dug oneself a hole.</span></span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: large;">I think I'll need to refit some 2 - 2 headers, as the next step is some 620 cams modified to fit the old 3 bearings heads.</span></span></div>
Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-88106542059422640882017-06-04T06:14:00.000-07:002017-06-04T13:46:05.962-07:00Magni Sfida / Guzzi PHM40 dyno graph<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">As alluded to in the Sport 1100 post, a graph from a Magni Sfida running an over 1000cc LM4/5 motor of some tune spec (</span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">no idea specifically) fitted with PHM40 carbs. Which model of PHM40 I don't recall, it was 2008. </span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">With the 175 mains it came in with it would kill the engine if you held it open from 4,000 rpm - at 6,500 to 7,000 it would shut down, then come back. As the plugs were very black I figured it might be momentarily fouling the plugs. The dyno showed OMG rich - off the scale (under 10:1) by 3,500 rpm. 148 mains fixed it, but the mixture tapered in a straight line from 14:1 around 3,500 rpm to 12:1 by 7,500 rpm.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">My suspicion now that I look at it is air bleed sizing, which is not adjustable in Dellortos. So I was worried that I might see a similar thing with the Sport 1100, but also curious that the fact these carbs were made to suit this engine </span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">size</span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"> and rpm range </span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">may mean they were different internally to whatever variant of PHM40 was on the Magni. The problem of "the things you don't know you don't know" means sometimes you have no answers. I don't know who you'd ask either.</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Red is 175 main, blue 165, green 152, dark blue and yellow 148 (LH and RH samples). A compromise is all that was available here.</span></div>
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Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-62742653749016014092017-06-04T03:00:00.001-07:002017-06-04T13:58:16.072-07:00Dellorto carb tuning on a Moto Guzzi Sport 1100, with some gearing and ignition rambling.<br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Something I haven't done for 22 years - played with carb tuning on a Sport 1100.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">We were dealers at Moto Italiano in 1995 when the Sport 1100 were released. They ran poorly at low speed, and we tried a few things to fix them that didn't really work. Looking back now I don't recall what we did, but I don't think we ever changed needles or needle jets. Probably because it went into the "too hard" basket that you often get at a dealership when you're chasing warranty issues with no support or denial from the importer/warranty issuer. It can be a very frustrating situation. Plus I didn't really have much specific Dellorto tuning experience back then, nor the info </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">required</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"> in the form </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">that I'm going to use here.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">So when I had someone ring and ask me to tune one I was a bit reluctant. The story was that it used to run very nicely. Then someone else had played with it, and now it didn't go so well. The airbox had been removed and small pods filters fitted, and the jetting changed. It was all a bit vague and I had the feeling I should have done what I knew at least one other person had done and found an excuse not to work on it. Or just outright refused. But I have this often trouble making sense of obligation to help people, and agreed.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The original airbox got a lot of blame for the poor low speed running back in the day, but one thing it did have was the somewhat unglamorous plastic ram tubes on the back of the carbs. I don'</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">t recall how long they were, but looking at the available space and remembering what they looked like in my 1100i, I'd think they were around 150mm long. When you start looking at inlet lengths and theory and how long stuff needs to be, it generally turns out that, on motorcycle applications, you just don't have the room. The distance from the valve seat to the air entry is the length you're looking at, and for this engine running to 8,000 rpm maximum ideally it'd be in the 450mm range. More than the available. </span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I recalled Barry Jones of Italian Motorcycle Engineering playing with one back in the day, so I gave Baz a call to ask what he had done. He'd been involved in one fitted with FCR carbs and on that they'd moved the carbs back an extra 50mm or so to give it some more length. I thought it'd be easier to fit a ram tube of some sort, and went looking for something with a 52mm mounting ID.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I found these - <a href="https://www.efihardware.com/products/1066/ram-tube-velocity-stack-52-x-100mm"><span style="color: red;">Ram tubes</span></a> - and figured they'd be as good a place to start as any. Not too expensive being part of the consideration when you're trying ideas that might turn out to be crap. I also needed filters, so got some of the Uni filter socks to go over them.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I had also asked Baz for any jetting recommendations. His reply of K5 and 265 made me think about how you can often overlook a simple basis. Lots of Ducati 900 bevels with PHM40 run the K4 needle and 265AB needle jet, and for Guzzi it seems to be the K5 needle and 265AB needle jet. The original setup for the Sport 1100 is K18 and 266AB. This one had K20 and 268AB. I have a spreadsheet of Dellorto needles that makes it easy to compare them in an almost visual sense, and that's where I headed before I started changing things.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Well, the first thing I changed was the float height. Set to 21mm when I started, I lifted the float level to 18mm. This is done with the carb sitting on the air filter flange and the float pivoting about and above the spindle. 18mm is pretty close to as high as they would go and still give a readable setting, whereas the older PHM were more obvious at 18mm I recall. Anyway, they were set and I moved on. I don't use float level as a tuning variable. I figure offering myself less possibilities for confusion is beneficial.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">As was, the carb set up was 60/3 slide, K20 needle on the 3rd notch, 268AB needle jet, 162 main and 65 pilot. Std spec on the Sport 1100 (Euro that we got anyway) was 60/5, K18@3, 266AB, 152 and 57. The difference in the slides is the pump ramp - see my <a href="http://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com.au/2017/05/dellorto-phf-phm-pump-ramp-profiles.html"><span style="color: red;"> Dellorto phf / phm pump ramp profiles</span></a> piece for more info there.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Comparing the needles and needle jets can be confusing, but some years ago I made a spreadsheet for just this purpose. The needle jets, like the Dellorto mains and pilots, are self explanatory - divide the number by 100 and you have the dimension in mm. A 268 needle jet is 2.68mm, a 152 main is 1.52mm and a 57 pilot is 0.57mm. On the needle jet AB denotes the physical design of the jet and what carb models it fits into. Interestingly, the Keihin FCR carbs have only one needle jet size. They offer a vast array of needles varying in root diameter (steps of 0.01mm), taper and overall length to hit the required targets.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The Dellorto needles are numbered without reason as such. All (afaik) K needles for the PHF/PHM carbs are the same overall length, being 73.5mm as I measured it. Variables are the root diameter, tip diameter, taper length and number of clip grooves. This chart shows the options. It's a bit hard to read, due to the amount of info on it. I didn't realise there were over 90 K needles - I have up to K30 on my spreadsheet.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Using the numbers I had found, I made a spreadsheet which gives needle diameter at distances from the tip in 2mm steps. It seemed about the most logical way to do it, although now that I have done some more measuring on them and found the clip grooves are 1.25mm apart using 1.25mm may have made more sense. The K5, which has 3 grooves, has the top of the clip grooves 2.75, 4.0 and 5.25mm from the top of the needle. The K20, which has 4 grooves, has the tops of the grooves 1.75, 3.0, 4.25 and 5.50mm from the top of the needle. Probably more accurate to measure from the bottom of the needle given that's how the taper is specified, but that's not important now.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The spreadsheet looks like this. This is the "sorted by #" page, and gives you the sizing info in # order.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">To begin with, the important piece of info is A, the root diameter. This is the constant diameter section at the top of the needle, which controls the mixture (in conjunction with the </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">pilot jet, mixture screw setting, slide cutaway and needle root diameter) </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">in the first 1/4 to 1/3 of slide movement (depending on carb throat diameter, maybe even up to 1/2). Consider, realistically, how often you use more than 1/3 throttle. Unless you're getting up it for the rent, it's not as often as you might think (hope).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">You can see that the K5 is 2.45mm root diameter, whereas the K18 and K20 are 2.50mm. Meaning the result of running any of these needles will depend also on the chosen needle jet, which is why you might need a 268 with the K18/20 and a 265 with the K5 sort of thing.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">And so the confusion sets in.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Comparing the combinations was the next part of the spreadsheet, with a page I called "flow area". Now, the important part to remember here is that this "flow area" is a calculated number with a somewhat limited grip on reality. Reality means that there is a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundary_layer">Boundary Layer</a>, which refers to the fluid (be it liquid or gas) that is immediately next to a surface over which said fluid is passing. At the surface, the fluid is actually not moving, and from there the speed of the fluid increases as you move away from the surface.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">In this instance of a needle in a needle jet, there are two surfaces and the important dimension that will come up later (maybe I should do it now) is the circumference of the boundary. A needle with 2.50mm diameter has a circumference of 7.85mm, and the needle jet with 2.68mm hole has a circumference of 8.42mm, giving us a total boundary layer surface width of 16.27mm which the fuel is flowing over.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Compare this to the 152 main jet, who's circumference is 4.77mm and you can see that the needle/needle jet combo has 3.4 times the surface width of the main jet. Why is this important? Well, in the comparison and calculations to come, you can calculate the flow area of the main jet and from that deduce when the main metering device (ie, biggest restriction) moves from needle in needle jet to main jet. Except that the boundary layer will impact here to some extent, and comparing the two jet systems has to allow for the impact of the boundary layer of the needle/needle jet system causing a greater restriction and thereby, in reality, giving a smaller comparative calculated flow area as compared to the main jet. ie, the needle in needle jet will remain the main metering device to a higher throttle opening (slide lift) than the numbers suggest.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">So, to be clear, this is a number of some use, to be used with some notion of the fact that it's not totally realistic, in the quest for some ability to compare needle and needle jet combinations. </span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Compounding this is the fact that the K5 has 3 clip grooves and the K18 and K20 4 means the grooves are in different positions and therefore the relative position of the needles can vary there also. With the K5 needle and clip fitted to the second groove, there was 56.5mm of needle protruding below the slide, and 50mm of needle inside the needle jet. With a 40mm carb, and realistically 39mm or a bit more of travel from idle to WOT, this meant that the needle taper would become active around 1/3 throttle opening, and anything under that throttle opening would be controlled by (in order from closed throttle) mixture screw, pilot jet, slide cutaway and needle root diameter/needle jet diameter. Next time you're out on your Sport 1100 carby mark the throttle and take a glance to see how much you're using. 1/3 throttle is fair acceleration at any speed under quite a bit too fast for licence.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The following piece of the spreadsheet shows the needle diameters, calculated flow area and % comparison between the jetting set up. Original is the Moto Guzzi spec - K18 with 266 needle jet. 1 is the "as delivered to me": K20 and 268. 2 is my starting point: K5 and 265. 3 is my first revision: K5 and 266. 4 is my finishing point: K5 lowered 1 groove to the first and 266.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The highlighted areas are the approximate effective range of operation that will be used on the PHM40. The green area is the "non main jet" section and the yellow the "main jet" section. Apply the aforementioned disclaimers from above as required. I'd say the needle/needle jet to main jet transition is around 2/3 throttle.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">You can see how much richer than std the K20 and 268 is, and the spark plugs did reflect this. The bottom line of the % comparison is the one of importance though, as that's where I ended up, and it shows how much richer then leaner my final setting of K5@1 and 266 was.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The spec for my first step was the previously fitted 60/3 slides, K5 needle with the clip in the second groove (K5@2), 265AB needle jet, 152 main jet and 60 pilot. The airbox had previously been removed and replaced with these pod filters that I generally don't like. There's no rounded transition internally into the inlet, and I don't think they flow that well either.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">On the road for the first ride, it was quite flat at very low throttle and rpm - there was a real dead spot around 2,000 rpm. It really came good around 2,800 rpm and up into 3 - 3,500 rpm. On a moving with/through traffic roll on it felt a touch flat again, but rather nice anyway. Based on those two feelings, and the fact that having marked the twist grip showed that nearly any riding within any confines of traffic had the throttle less than 1/4 open, I went for the needle jet as the first change. This is the opposite of what I usually do to a 900 Ducati - SS, MHR - with PHM40, where going from a 265 to 264 needle jet cleans them up very nicely on cruise. I was after a similar minor change here, just the other way.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Ride two with K5@2 and 266 was nice. The roll on from 70 km/h (probably </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">less than </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">1/8 throttle) with 1/4 - 1/3 throttle opening was lovely, and the very low speed pick up was better. Still fairly awful to ride under 2,800 rpm though, compounded by the clunky box and gearing. Then I went up from 60 to 62 on the pilot, which richened the bottom without making any real difference to how it ran under 2,800 rpm. It's a very odd feeling - if you hold the throttle constant and let it accelerate in first gear from 2,000 rpm up, the change in drive around 2,800 makes me think there's a spark advance influence here also. I don't believe it's just mixture. Going back to 57 pilots confirmed this - there was a bit of flatness around 2,500 rpm when cold, but once warm was no better or worse that with 60 or 62. ie, still crap. Idle mixture screw settings for around 5.5% CO were 57: 3, 60: 2 7/8 and 62: 2 5/8 turns out.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">With the 152 mains fitted, the jetting I was running, with open pipes and pod filters, was the same as it was when the bike left the factory with the exception of the K5 needle.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Next was the trip to the dyno, to get some hard numbers and try out some </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">inlet </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">ideas. We ran it as it was, then removed the pods, tried some other little filters that I didn't think would be any different (they weren't), then fitted the ram tubes and Uni filters. After the WOT tests were done, we ran 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8 and 3/4 throttle runs to check the mixture.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">First up, pod filters versus no filters. Not sure what the dip around 7,500 is about. I'm don't know how much raising the float levels from 21 to 18mm would have changed the mixture, but I had also already gone down 10 numbers on the main jets (162 to 152) before I went to the dyno, and it was still running 12:1 or fatter. Getting rid of the filters certainly helped. The leanness at the start of the run happened for all runs over 1/4 throttle pretty much, but you know and ignore that.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="color: red;">(digression)</span> One thing that did come to mind here is the shape of the air/fuel curve. Years ago I dynod a Magni, which had an over 1000cc LM4/5 engine (no idea specifically) fitted with PHM40 carbs and it had an air/fuel curve that tapered from lean to rich and made jetting a bit of a mess. With the 175 mains it came in with it would kill the engine if you held it open from 4,000 rpm - at 6,500 to 7,000 it would shut down, then come back. I figured it might be momentarily fouling the plugs. Dyno showed OMG rich - off the scale (under 10:1) by 3,500 rpm. 148 mains fixed it, but the mixture tapered in a straight line from 14:1 around 3,500 rpm to 12:1 by 7,500 rpm. My suspicion was air bleed sizing, which is not a variable in Dellortos. So I was worried that we might see a similar thing here, but also curious that the fact these carbs were made to suit this engine </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">size</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"> and rpm range </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">may mean they were different internally to whatever variant of PHM40 was on the Magni. Which is the inevitable incidence of "what you don't know you don't know" raising its oh so welcome head.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">But the air/fuel curve is somewhat similar to what I see with the Ducati 900 motors and FCR41 carbs - a lean rise in the midrange and somewhat richer either side. The FCR39 are better (flatter curve) in that application for a 900, but gave a similar shape curve on my 750. Just another aside.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Anyway, back on track we go. Pod filters in red, no filters in blue, 152 main jet on both.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Next the trumpets went on without filters. My hope was that they would help, which they did. The dip in the curve around 4,500 has moved down a couple of hundred rpm with the extra length, but it's still there. My Sport 1100i had a similar dip, and the easiest common element to apportion blame to there is the camshaft. Not that it's a bad cam. I believe it actually came from Crane.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">No filters or ram tubes in red, ram tubes without filters in blue.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The only decent air filter option I had found for the ram tubes as was were the Uni Filter socks. I did think that you could weld a flat strip to the ram tubes on the leading edge of the bell for a large K&N or the like to clamp to, but in the interests of not spending any more money than needed on parts that may not be used we went this way. Happily, they worked. No filters red, filters blue.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">This gave us a WOT before/after result as below. Rather relieving and satisfying, as it turns out. The mixture leaned off to around 13.5 at 6,000 rpm, so after I got back to the factory I went up from 152 to 155 on the main, which I think helped a little with the roll on at 3,000 rpm too. Realistically, you don't ride these things by nailing it full open at 3,000 rpm, but it's nice to know it will do it and just pull.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The air/fuel traces from the part throttle runs mostly showed the same consistency in curve shape to the WOT runs, which again must be due to camshaft and maybe exhaust design. We didn't record a run under 1/8 throttle, but with it bumbling along on the dyno at 2,500 or so rpm it was even richer, under 12:1. This was with 62 pilots, and both Dave and I were sceptical of how much impact a one or two step leaner pilot would have. But, as is the case with carbs, you only have so many ways to fix an issue, so later I went to 57 and, as it was no worse, left it there. Low speed and throttle like this is controlled by pilot jet, mixture screw setting, slide cutaway and needle root diameter. Fixing it can either be a lucky guess and succeed, or many hours of trial and error.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The richness of the over 1/4 throttle runs was the reason for dropping the needles from the second to the first groove. I did that and the main and pilot jet changes after leaving the dyno (a dyno session without being covered in petrol, oh the joy), so don't have any confirmation on effects of the changes. But it felt better on the road.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Red is 1/8, blue 1/4, green 3/8, orange 1/2, dark blue 5/8 and brown 3/4. Olive is WOT as a comparison. The fact that any more than 1/2 throttle below 4,500 rpm gets you no more power is something I didn't notice beforehand, and now I'm curious if there's anything more than a change in engine noise with more throttle in that rpm range. Dyno says no, but then it is just a dyno.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhftSPIRQwidSZB_ARKwqQR1idNk18FNxvhHTzsOrIpovF4UaQCUEDGAwbXvUAq4zZNGBX99HzdZhCOmUf_4TlVzkSEe2i39JpMFHc2N3zW08FRyzoxxj2g6nsD2vKAsHR878kuVR2R8gCq/s1600/8.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="600" data-original-width="1024" height="375" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhftSPIRQwidSZB_ARKwqQR1idNk18FNxvhHTzsOrIpovF4UaQCUEDGAwbXvUAq4zZNGBX99HzdZhCOmUf_4TlVzkSEe2i39JpMFHc2N3zW08FRyzoxxj2g6nsD2vKAsHR878kuVR2R8gCq/s640/8.PNG" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The final ram tube and Uni Filter sock fitment came out as below. I cut the LH filter and spring down by 30mm to allow for the cylinder offset and to have them both ending at about the same point over the frame cross tube. I used 33-57mm clamps to hold the ram tubes to the carbs (I actually had to open the ram tubes up a little with a flap wheel to get them on the carbs, but you need to be sure they're not going to bail once out and about) and 52-76mm clamps on the socks. Given the trumpets are tapered where those clamps fit, and clamping oiled foam is like catching an eel (as good a reason as any to quote the great Mojo Nixon: "I'm slicker than two eels f***ing in a bucket of snot"), so who knows how well that'll work out long term. Undoubtedly I will be informed.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhwpRkRbu50e0OcL8aUqmNiEydvTJCjj5qUHyyTAp8LB0pzRpj_Frk_OtDPD_lpPYKe-uARMcUyLlubNyQj7CwebR3wEOzIHY7VuixGsegT4X_MCYdJ2gpwcdaStOb7xhieNtMFEeLmI617/s1600/lh+filter.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="735" data-original-width="980" height="479" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhwpRkRbu50e0OcL8aUqmNiEydvTJCjj5qUHyyTAp8LB0pzRpj_Frk_OtDPD_lpPYKe-uARMcUyLlubNyQj7CwebR3wEOzIHY7VuixGsegT4X_MCYdJ2gpwcdaStOb7xhieNtMFEeLmI617/s640/lh+filter.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhIuy04xqrHxC55HutuchLbVwBgk8VQ6_tlyntlu0LI8VcSirBx-cCz9oJqWQXwN6SAM8QG8yext4yt7-hjF_iBSo9vYQgxk2Z6eta6HIXicWtCWBLTeEDYIN9BET_QJYsMQEekTyKZOicv/s1600/rh+filter.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="735" data-original-width="980" height="478" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhIuy04xqrHxC55HutuchLbVwBgk8VQ6_tlyntlu0LI8VcSirBx-cCz9oJqWQXwN6SAM8QG8yext4yt7-hjF_iBSo9vYQgxk2Z6eta6HIXicWtCWBLTeEDYIN9BET_QJYsMQEekTyKZOicv/s640/rh+filter.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The filters come with a zip tie to hold them on, but it's a bit low rent for an external fitment.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjt-LWH8H7Jko9H7PK2ax-wOJH86E1q_SuQQF51EmsjIQG8AncHyBmmt6SfBb6At_2RypEPW6Q3Ma8tjqzdWa3gNOR-ejPBY49baou9XsuNmEnQNzZtQCzbT0kbsdNMZsd-EtBC8KQ_8T1r/s1600/stacks+2.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="735" data-original-width="980" height="478" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjt-LWH8H7Jko9H7PK2ax-wOJH86E1q_SuQQF51EmsjIQG8AncHyBmmt6SfBb6At_2RypEPW6Q3Ma8tjqzdWa3gNOR-ejPBY49baou9XsuNmEnQNzZtQCzbT0kbsdNMZsd-EtBC8KQ_8T1r/s640/stacks+2.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The final result is nice above 2,800 rpm, but it's a fairly unpleasant bike to ride under that (which in second gear is 50km/h) and exaggerated by the clunky gearbox. This was made very obvious when I road tested a 1000S after servicing at the same time. The 1000S, which has similar PHM40 carbs and different, but similarly large camshaft, was a joy at low speed. It'd pull away from almost idle happily, and from memory it was running mostly std jetting (K19@3 and 268AB) with not too loud mufflers and maybe similar little mesh pods.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">This prompted me to look at a couple of things, namely ignition system and gearing. </span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The 1000S had an original distributor and Dyna controller. As a side note (another one), when I first saw this 1000S for a big service some years ago, I checked the ignition timing and it had 20 or so degrees advance across the range. A locked distributor from a previously fitted electronic ignition (before this owner's tenure) like a Lucas Rita maybe, which didn't require the centrifugal like the Dyna does, as the Dyna simply replaces the points system to trigger to coils. Parts for these distributors are so hard to find it was easiest to buy a complete s/h distributor. A set of LM4 advance springs and away it went. Wasn't as responsive down low as before due to the lack of advance under 2,000 rpm or so, but better above it. I thought it was pretty funny, I guess someone figured 20 degrees was enough to make it work.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Anyway, it ran so much better at low speed than the Sport 1100, with more rpm at any road speed, that I thought I'd check the gearing. Turns out everything is different - primary drive, gearbox and rear drive - as below.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEitiOW4RaAI8mrb6ekQe_Zp7J87swVjtPp9vhFvdopU5JFgj68UebVZfG_OIBVJ-2Iwgb_ZkPYp3KoxLrk2WILgUcso9mMDsERyipJH5_dhfv3QoTOC0J2LFvsWS1JKEPby3qzyvQH8luJ_/s1600/gear+1.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="200" data-original-width="546" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEitiOW4RaAI8mrb6ekQe_Zp7J87swVjtPp9vhFvdopU5JFgj68UebVZfG_OIBVJ-2Iwgb_ZkPYp3KoxLrk2WILgUcso9mMDsERyipJH5_dhfv3QoTOC0J2LFvsWS1JKEPby3qzyvQH8luJ_/s1600/gear+1.png" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">So the Sport 1100 gear ratios are all higher and closer together, the final drive ratio is taller, but the primary drive ratio is shorter. Overall ratios are still quite a bit taller though. I know the gearing came from the Daytona, which was theoretically geared for 270 km/h at 9,000 rpm, and the racing bikes would have gone that fast. But I still don't see the need for the road bike to have such a close ratio box.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The Daytona and Sport 1100 don't have a cush drive in the rear wheel either, so it can be quite abrupt on the on/off and the low speed baggyness only exaggerates that.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhv5Hqs_nXx5qNCPLNae9kCfBBLltmeN5dyCkraISgndqHt6ZXnCFIDxAxf5ATd63VRFRtpsANNj4MHV605zmtWMNhgvQ9UUgRy9VIT1HIxS9LHsJApCReVfMrtQ1JWs1gQWjdgKTHqfbHu/s1600/gear+2.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="201" data-original-width="271" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhv5Hqs_nXx5qNCPLNae9kCfBBLltmeN5dyCkraISgndqHt6ZXnCFIDxAxf5ATd63VRFRtpsANNj4MHV605zmtWMNhgvQ9UUgRy9VIT1HIxS9LHsJApCReVfMrtQ1JWs1gQWjdgKTHqfbHu/s1600/gear+2.png" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">To get an idea of what can be done final drive wise, see below. I rang Mario at Thunderbikes to see what diff ratios could be swapped in, and Mario mentioned an 8/35 gearset from a V7 Sport (I think). From 8/33 to 8/35 is about 6% change, whereas 8/33 to 7/33 is 12.5%. 6% sounds pretty good. I had also thought of swapping in a 17" rear wheel from the later bikes - Daytona RS, Sport 1100i, Centauro and the V11 series all use the same wheels, 3 spoke 17" with the same disc mountings and a cush drive in the rear. Comparing the tyre sizes on a few manufacturers web sites didn't show a great deal of difference in the tyre diameters - 650mm for a 160/60ZR18 and 630mm for a 160/60ZR17 - about 3%. As the Sport 1100 and Daytona wheels are a different spoke pattern (which looks better imo), you'd need front and rear wheels to keep it matched.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Looking back at my Sport 1100i, I don't recall the gearing being something that I really thought about. But the low speed manners were much better.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The table below is calculated speeds at 8,000 rpm for each gear. This bike has had the fairing removed, so as a naked I don't think 240 km/h will be required. With the power peaking around 7,000 rpm, I don't know if it'd pull 8,000 rpm in top gear anyway.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjDRienUizDyCr2P3Qe5chwEX7kIrlz0Yqh3poEjpbCVdd-FMssBirZ0QbCmvC2StDkDg4aue9VHKROpZd1HbryCJOZieP91qPJlTQV1QWewLowlTrjuPJQ4Z7fhmQXmgHLBggZHKxFTimy/s1600/gear+3.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="123" data-original-width="418" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjDRienUizDyCr2P3Qe5chwEX7kIrlz0Yqh3poEjpbCVdd-FMssBirZ0QbCmvC2StDkDg4aue9VHKROpZd1HbryCJOZieP91qPJlTQV1QWewLowlTrjuPJQ4Z7fhmQXmgHLBggZHKxFTimy/s1600/gear+3.png" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Changing the final drive ratio, keeping in mind this is a 70,000 km old rear drive, will no doubt involve a rebuild, so as a job you'd be allowing $2,000. Going to a set of 17" wheels, with a new rear tyre, would probably end up somewhere near that too. Not a cheap gearing change. And I'd probably want a wider spread gear set in the gearbox too, just to make it nice.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The next point of thought is the ignition system. The Sport 1100 got the Marelli Digiplex system, which was also fitted to the late carb model California and Nevada as well as the Ducati 906 and 1990 900SS. The Ducati workshop manuals give advance curves, but the Guzzi manuals don't. To me, it feels like this system has a rapidly increasing advance curve coming up to 3,000 rpm, as the character of the engine just changes in a few hundred rpm. I did put some marks on the ring gear teeth so I could give it a rough check, and it didn't seem too bad, but maybe it just wants more.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">More advance can make a real difference, especially to low speed response and smoothness. I tend to add quite a bit to lots of the spark advance maps when I'm playing with the fuel injected bikes just because.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">It is possible to replace the Digiplex with an Ignitech to give control over the advance curve, but another concern, based on what we've seen with the Breva 1100 and 1200 models, is that more advance around 2,000 rpm or so can make them hold up on the return to idle. So maybe they found that issue back in the day with the Sport 1100. Fitting an Ignitech and setting it up, especially if you add a MAP sensor to allow extra </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">part</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">throttle advance via a 3D map, would run to at least $800 I'd think. So more possible fixes, but none of them cheap or guaranteed.</span><br />
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Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-75721867460660236962017-05-17T02:15:00.002-07:002017-05-17T02:49:18.570-07:00Dellorto PHF PHM pump ramp profiles<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I have a Guzzi Sport 1100 in to attempt to tune, and in going through what had been changed and what effects those changes may have had, I found some specs for the pump ramps on the PHF and PHM slides. So, the obvious thing to do was make a graph comparing them all. It makes much more sense in a visual form for me.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The starting point is nominally the idle setting, but that's not a fixed thing so the actual "when stuff happens" numbers are a bit ish.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The slides are numbered with an XX/Y system, where the XX is the cutaway (in tenths of mm) and the Y is the pump ramp ID (it's just a number). The cutaways I've seen are 50, 60 or 70, and the slides are /1 to /5.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The cutaway affects low slide lift mixture. The smaller number has less of a cutaway at the rear edge of the slide, which increases the manifold vacuum transferred to the top of the needle jet (atomiser) and enrichens the mixture due to the greater pressure differential between the top of the needle jet and the fuel in the float bowl.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The maximum pump lever deflection on an old slide I had measured at 5.6mm, so that's the maximum number I used. The slide travel from closed to wide open is about 1mm less that the carb bore diameter, as at idle the opening under </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">the front of </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">the slide is about 1mm. Ish.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The Sport 1100 had a /5 std, this one has /3. Don't know if that's a good or bad thing. Lots of the 41mm Malossi converted PHM 40 don't have pumps at all, and they're a "racing" carb. And a trick when you're dyno tuning Dellortos is to pull the pump lever so you don't get any pump shot influence in your readings. So you can do without them if you're not slamming the throttle open in an aggressive fashion (ie, doing roll on wheelies). Where on earth is the fun in that you may well ask. I would.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiqaRB0c6AX8Cl14P7k8ZqFUK2SZ_lSvm-19lOB-fhhXrtI6uHJXBf5wxWpaAYWRBjceBML1tQTD50chHe3JZ4AZhA4_ydUHaFTQgbyxFkZ2yAe57wONZudMtLl2DjdDEzcrosxCx6bkF7I/s1600/dellorto+slide+1.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="418" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiqaRB0c6AX8Cl14P7k8ZqFUK2SZ_lSvm-19lOB-fhhXrtI6uHJXBf5wxWpaAYWRBjceBML1tQTD50chHe3JZ4AZhA4_ydUHaFTQgbyxFkZ2yAe57wONZudMtLl2DjdDEzcrosxCx6bkF7I/s640/dellorto+slide+1.png" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">As an aside of some relevance, I'll add this from the Moto Guzzi Lemans 1000 manual. It's just so delightfully delusional, and always makes me smile.</span><br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhBeDMvQ07W-7PgNMvYcGl33u-oDnjDJ40DUBnOaYGndiRgz39lKUmoddDpMiTAHSfZAaOnrMt74HNovKD5C5MxJFCm4aVf77H7JBw5FhKa-1lvkP0Z_7JqMmOe5_jwPD2l4GKsYcy4uO5W/s1600/dellorto+slide+2.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="360" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhBeDMvQ07W-7PgNMvYcGl33u-oDnjDJ40DUBnOaYGndiRgz39lKUmoddDpMiTAHSfZAaOnrMt74HNovKD5C5MxJFCm4aVf77H7JBw5FhKa-1lvkP0Z_7JqMmOe5_jwPD2l4GKsYcy4uO5W/s640/dellorto+slide+2.png" width="640" /></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Dream on, my man, dream on.</span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-31789210661614280572017-03-05T00:14:00.001-08:002017-03-06T03:44:26.930-08:00More Minnie the 400 Monster dyno runs<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">I took Minnie to the
dyno today to see how the 2-1 works. Not
well as it happens - red is the 2-1 curve, blue the previous session with the std headers and Megacycle mufflers.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">Pretty much dyno'd how it feels on the road - goes well under 8, no point going over. </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">I was going to set up one of the previously dyno'd Megacycle muflers to give just the change due to the 2-1 header, but didn't get to it.</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">I hadn’t revved it hard before the 2-1 went on. Now that I have a tacho fitted to know how hard I am revving it, I can see that it would have been very unlikely that I was going over 8 anyway. As such, I really didn't notice the now crap (ish) top end in comparison to the previous set up. </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"> Maybe I need to make a twin muffler mounting bracket for under the tail and cut down the second Danmoto muffler to fit with original header.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">I don't have any air/fuel for the original exhaust and Megacycle mufflers, as the bike killed the dyno on those trips.</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">The rpm and air/fuel were shutting down when we tried to run it. </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">After the last session I </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">fitted resistor
spark plugs, which you need to run with the Ignitech and which all these carby SS
bikes (should have) had oem.</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">I assume that’s what made
the dyno control happy.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">First runs were baffle
in and then baffle out. I modified one
of the Danmoto baffles I had. It has 12
holes around it, and the total area of the holes was about the same as the muffler
internal diameter anyway. I machined the
end cap of the muffler just a little to allow the baffle to slide in, and them
machined a circlip groove to hold it in.
Of course, I didn’t have any circlips big enough to start with, so I
bent up a round clip from coat hanger wire.
Gotta love coat hanger wire. As
below – without, machining, and with.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">Made so little
difference you’d have to call it none.
Then I found that the Showa fork spring preload tubes are a perfect fit
over the Danmoto baffle, so I slid a tube over, tacked it on then cut off the original
end cap. The internal diameter of the baffle
exit is now probably a bit under 20mm. Again,
not a lot of difference, but I ran with it.
<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">You can hear the
slight change in these clips I took in the dyno room. Not great sound, but definitely quieter with
baffle from the bottom.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="color: #cc0000; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-LFKPoaE44">With baffle</a></span></div>
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<span style="color: #cc0000; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Sg7bs2qwec">Without baffle</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">As expected, it hurt
the bottom end a little. Not as much as
I’d hurt the top end though. Baffling
the mufflers usually effects the peak torque more than the peak power, but in this
instance that’s a bit hard to see.<o:p></o:p></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"></span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"> </span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">It was a bit (fair
bit) on the rich side, so I thought I'd try it out without the airbox lid.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">It was a bit better
power wise, but the mixture change was pretty extreme. More than I think I've seen before on a 2v
motor. Too rich to more too lean.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">Then I tried it with lid, but without the snorkels. That helped a bit, but still too lean on the needle.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">I have some of the original
400ss carb springs, that are a lot lighter than every other OEM Mikuni spring I’ve
seen them fitted with. I might try them,
not sure if that'll make it better due to the increased slide opening lifting
the needle more, or worse because it'll have less vacuum over the jet and the
needles aren't tapered enough anyway.
I do have some jet kit needles that might be the go. Probably with springs as well - you’d just
call that fitting a jet kit.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">I rode it back from
the dyno with one snorkel fitted and without the baffle. It felt a bit
stronger without it, but the missing snorkel may also have been helping there.<br />
<br />The Ignitech unit I fitted before this dyno session has the same
advance as the std boxes. Well (you know when you make assumptions and then later you think "oh"), maybe I
should check that - it should have the same advance. </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">I know that from the previous 750 engine testing that l</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">ack of advance hurts the top end and can give
an exaggerated choppiness to the curve.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">This early Ignitech TCIP4 has a delay that increases as rpm climbs. </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">The newer units (this one I've had since 2005 or so) don't. </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">I thought I had allowed for it in my curve, but maybe not enough. </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">I did have the oem boxes with me at the dyno, but my time was pretty much up there and I had to get back to work anyway so I didn't.</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">One thing I hate about not having my own dyno running is not being able to act on all the things you think of later when it's too late.</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"><br />
<br />
So maybe it didn't have enough top end advance, and it was rich anyway. </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">Fairly extreme fuelling (well, air entry affecting fuelling) changes didn't make a big difference either, although it did go from too rich to too lean. </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">The last run I did had the mixture back at 13.5 or so in the crap top end area, so that pretty much rules mixture out.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">Although
I ran these same carbs years ago when it was a std 600, and I would have
thought with a smaller engine it should be leaner due to less suck. </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">For some of the production years the M400 and M600
are fitted with the same carb spec (same part number). </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">I did shoot some video through the airbox lid
without an air filter fitted of the slide, and it did look like it was lifting
all the way up. </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"> </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">I was wondering if it
would, given it's a pretty big carb for a 400. Lots of fuel flying around too.</span><br />
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<span style="color: #cc0000; font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGxf3TZDIqc">Through the snorkel hole</a></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">As it sits at work now (waiting for a nice day and time to go for a ride,
it's pretty hot here now) it has one of the Megacycle mufflers fitted to rule
that change out, and I'll put some oem ignition units in my pocket and fit them
on the road. I really can't see the exhaust alone hurting it this much, as
nothing I've done exhaust wise in the past has, but I'm often wrong. And I do have concerns that the 2-1 merge isn't deep enough into the V of the original connector. It may
actually allow flow from one cylinder to go back up the pipe toward the other
cylinder. Not so bad from the vertical as the pipe in is angled, but from the
horizontal it can. That's possibly an
issue and not one I can do a lot about with this header set, especially now
they’re ceramic coated.</span><br />
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Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-3605087137193785482017-02-14T03:24:00.000-08:002017-02-14T03:45:22.783-08:00Some more Gates belt stuff<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif; font-size: large;">One of the things that surprises me when I write posts are the reactions I sometimes get, specifically the questions that often leave me wondering how people interpret or comprehend what I've written. It makes me realise how hard it can be to be clear and get what I'm trying to say across. Compounded by my tendency to ramble and digress and straight up forget what I was rabbiting on about in the first place. So I'll put in some more belt info, and try to respond to some of the comments and questions.</span><br />
<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Another thing is that (especially with cam timing) people ask me for "the good numbers", as if there's some sort of secret squirrel component to what I write. There's not. </span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">What you see is what you get.</span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Anyway, belts.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The old Gates belts were available for all the Ducati models pre 98 external to Ducati via Gates distributors. The three part numbers were "cancelled" in Australia last year, not sure about the rest of the world. They were all differing construction types, which I found a bit interesting.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">T934: the 900 round tooth belt - 900SS, M900, 906, 907, ST2. 1st generation construction, NEO - Neoprene rubber fibreglass tensile cords and nylon tooth facing. Interesting that the belt introduced last was the most basic construction. Never gave any issues.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">T819: the Pantah square tooth belt - all small blocks (non 900) up to 1997. 2nd generation construction, HTN - High temperature neoprene rubber, fibreglass cords and nylon tooth facing. Never gave any issues. When the Pantah was first released, they had Pirelli belts which were rubbish I'm told by people who worked on them. And gone before my time. I have also seen Continental belts fitted to these motors.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">T917: the 4V belt, also fitted to Renault R19, which ran from 89 - 96 according to the Gates book. 3rd generation construction, HSN - Highly saturated nitrile rubber with aramid fibre loading, aramid or high tenacity fibreglass cords and nylon tooth facing. The problem belt (from 98 onwards at least). The interesting thing is the aramid part. Aramid is a generic name for what is better known by name brands such as Nomex and Kevlar (both owned by DuPont). So these belts it appears had a Kevlar component, which was allegedly the big point of the red letter belts.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">So to clarify, the only Ducati belt made by Gates that gave any issue was the T917 - available via Ducati or Gates. And the issues only appeared as a consistant problem in 1998, by which time Ducati seemed to have realised there was an issue as the "2 year replacement" directive was communicated to the importer (ours at least) before we had experienced it.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Why there was an issue I don't know. Lots of theories were expounded, but I like facts backed up with evidence and there didn't seem to be enough of that to generate any conclusions. Lots expired down the front straight at Philip Island, but lots didn't. They just broke on bikes that were more than 2 years old, but had done less than 20,000km. We also saw belts break that had been fitted at 20,000km services, but not replaced again within the 2 year window. Yes, the pullies are quite small compared to most automotive applications. And, on the 4V, there are quite extreme changes in direction compared to what you see in most automotive design. But, a</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">necdotal evidence of belt life before and after, especially with the later belts, would indicate that the actual engine design is not "the" issue.</span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"> </span></span><br />
<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">The Red Letter Belts, or whatever you wish to call them, were introduced in 1999 or so - I don't actually recall now. The main claim to them was that they contained Kevlar. All still made by Gates and marked as made in the UK, but not available outside of Ducati. Some were a bit more expensive, the Testastretta belts a lot so.</span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">Whether or not all the red letter belts actually contain Kevlar, I have no idea. If you can find someone at Gates who does know, pass it on.</span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">As to the two year replacement interval thing: Firstly, I have no interest in arguing this in the slightest. Absolutely none. Believe it. Don't believe it. I don't give a rat's arse. But every official Ducati workshop manual from 2000 until the MTS1200 has had the two year replacement regardless of km specified. At the bottom of the scheduled maintenance chart or on the next page, it will have the note corresponding to the (*) or (1) after the Timing belt line saying "Replace every two years, in any case." With the MTS1200 and Diavel it became 5 years. As I'm not part of the dealer network, I didn't get the official explanation as to why.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">As to how often I change my belts: I have only had one belt drive bike in use long enough to require belt changes, but then again it's also on its third engine in its time with me and there's been a bit of idle time. I think only the 750 engine has had belts in it long enough to need them to be replaced, and I only did that when I realised (after noticing the dates on dyno runs) they were over 5 years old. I'd guess the belts in the 851 are getting on for 15 years old now, but it hasn't run in 12 years so that's no big deal. Everything else has been moved on before time. But I'm a tight arse too, so any belts in my bikes will be in there for as long as I can withstand the niggling paranoia of impending doom.</span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">I've not used any of the Dayco belts. As the Australian distributor for California Cycleworks products, I use the Exactfit belts as the aftermarket option.</span></span>Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5762756769159510362.post-49419205640356466502017-02-11T14:33:00.002-08:002017-02-11T14:33:26.064-08:00I've gone bigger font. Someone's eyes aren't what they used to be.Brad The Bike Boyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07619487993750886929noreply@blogger.com0